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  #21  
Old October 4th, 2014, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
If we go outside of D&D, there are many d20 based games (based on D&D 3.X) that change the definition of hit points.

As far as D&D goes, I haven't read the definition of each edition, but I suspect that there are differences in different editions, especially in 4th edition (which I never played).

I do remember Gygax saying something about a person not being considered dead until about -3 HP or so in the AD&D DM's Guide, but my memory is very hazy on the specifics.
AD&D1E, HP are the number until one dies. (PHB p.34)
The DMG clarifies this: At 0, one is unconscious, and losing 1 further per round until -10, where one is dead. If you're sent any negative by a single blow, you just die. There is an option for 0 to -3 being unconscious and losing 1 per round... (all on p. 82)

Edit:Note that Flyers can't fly after taking 50%, and crash if they have taken 75% and are still in the air.

AD&D 2E is 0 is dead, optionally 0 to -9 is dying, and -10 is dead. Same for BECMI and Cyclopedia.

I honestly prefer the 5e version.
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Last edited by aramis; October 4th, 2014 at 01:16 AM..
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  #22  
Old October 4th, 2014, 10:11 AM
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And, it can be said that 1E AD&D is "munchkiny" with the high level/high hit point types.

It takes forever to kill a high level Fighter with 80 hit points.
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  #23  
Old October 4th, 2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
And, it can be said that 1E AD&D is "munchkiny" with the high level/high hit point types.
No. When compared to 2nd & 3rd Edition. You can't. 5th has made a MAJOR change in Healing and HP damage a PC can survive. The 8 hours and you have almost the equivalent of a 6th level Heal spell is VERY video game like and VERY munchkin. Fact
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Old October 4th, 2014, 01:15 PM
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They're all equally as munchkiny on that score.
??? NO. I'm ONLY comparing within D&D versions. NOT other games. Also, in other editions o D&D a 90 hp fighter could NEVER take up 150 hp in damage and live. In 5th that is possible.
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  #25  
Old October 4th, 2014, 02:10 PM
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??? NO. I'm ONLY comparing within D&D versions. NOT other games. Also, in other editions o D&D a 90 hp fighter could NEVER take up 150 hp in damage and live. In 5th that is possible.
In other versions, a swordsman with a longsword never does more than 1d10+8 damage, either. In next, he can get twice that. Rogue damage is +2d6 if they can get you distracted by an ally, and some rogues (all elven ones) can use longsword now.

However, Mr. 90HP also can be dead at exactly 90 - about half the time.

I've killed more PC's in next than in any other D&D, including AD&D, per hour of play. Monsters do more damage, the guys who hit more often do more damage, and combat advantage makes for almost automatic hits.

Attribute climb is capped: 20 is peak for PC attributes, save barbarians, who can hit 24 Str and Con.

AC's don't climb much, either. Peak PC AC works out thusly:

Lt Armor: 13+DexBonus (which is maxed at +5)
Med Armor: 15+LowerOf(dex bonus, 2)
Heavy Armor: 18
Shield adds 2
Defensive fighting style (fighter, barbarian, ranger) adds 2
Defense action adds 2
a couple spells can add 5
Cover can add 5

So innate peaks at 24, cover or magic can bring it to 29. And nat 20's hit and crit regardless of AC.

Average 1st level to hit bonus is 5 to 7 for fighters, and 2 to 5 for everyone else. Kobolds have a bloody +5... So they are a threat to pretty much everyone.

The game, in play (and I've been running D&D Encounters at my FLGS - one of 4 DMs doing so, and one of two who are on COTI) does not feel at all as munchkin as 3e or 4e. Players are much more cautious. The deletions are important: No massive climb in to hits, no massive climb in AC's, significant damage increases overall at mid-levels, far fewer high level spell slots (and more flexibility with them).

It's no more munchkin than any other D&D. You've fixated on one small item (and one that's not been much of an issue), in order to condemn it, apparently without either actually noticing the other changes nor playing it.

Oh, and low level play? it's as crunchy as ever. As brutal as in AD&D.
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  #26  
Old October 4th, 2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
In other versions, a swordsman with a longsword never does more than 1d10+8 damage, either. In next, he can get twice that. Rogue damage is +2d6 if they can get you distracted by an ally, and some rogues (all elven ones) can use longsword now.
Yes, I know. That STILL doesn't make everyone having access to one Heal spell a day AND a very good chance of NOT dying when taking double their HP in damage NOT munchkiny compared to prior versions of the same game. In 5th PC's are MUCH tougher than prior versions (exempting 4E here as not really D&D) on a straight up comparison via HP. FACT, based on math.

ex: a 50 h.p.fighter (in a 24 hour period) can take up 198 h.p. in damage without magic to help him. That is SO far above prior versions that to argue against is not worth replying to.
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  #27  
Old October 4th, 2014, 03:26 PM
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Yes, I know. That STILL doesn't make everyone having access to one Heal spell a day AND a very good chance of NOT dying when taking double their HP in damage NOT munchkiny compared to prior versions of the same game. In 5th PC's are MUCH tougher than prior versions (exempting 4E here as not really D&D) on a straight up comparison via HP. FACT, based on math.

ex: a 50 h.p.fighter (in a 24 hour period) can take up 198 h.p. in damage without magic to help him. That is SO far above prior versions that to argue against is not worth replying to.
NOT a "fact"... Not even close.

Take you BS elsewhere.
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  #28  
Old October 4th, 2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HG_B View Post
Yes, I know. That STILL doesn't make everyone having access to one Heal spell a day AND a very good chance of NOT dying when taking double their HP in damage NOT munchkiny compared to prior versions of the same game. In 5th PC's are MUCH tougher than prior versions (exempting 4E here as not really D&D) on a straight up comparison via HP. FACT, based on math.

ex: a 50 h.p.fighter (in a 24 hour period) can take up 198 h.p. in damage without magic to help him. That is SO far above prior versions that to argue against is not worth replying to.
Are you sure you have read 5th edition?

I would love to know what you are basing your opinions on, because the game I have doesn't play like that...
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Old October 5th, 2014, 09:24 PM
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I checked out the PHB tonight at the bookstore. I spent a lot of time just standing there, flipping through pages. I'm quite impressed with it.

Steve Winter, one of the writers, used to frequent this board. He co-wrote 2nd Edition, and he was kind enough to clarify some rules for me back when I was running that game several years ago.

Here's a question for those of you playing 5th edition: I like how the finicky skill points are a thing of the past. They were always a nightmare of bookkeeping. I see now, if you're good at something, you roll an attribute check, and if you're really good at that skill, then you are considered "advantaged". Therefore, you roll twice and take the higher of the two rolls.

I'm not sold on this mechanic. With skill points, one could get quite good at one or a few things while neglecting other skills and being just average at still more skills.

How does that play?

I guess the granularity is thrown out with the detail of the skill points. Now, it seems, a character is either average (for his attribute), disadvantaged, or advantaged. That's it.

And, there is no way for a character to outgrow the deficiency of his attribute. For example, if a character wanted to be good at Lockpicking, he could stack a pretty fair bonus in that one skill even if he did have a low DEX. It seems, in 5E, if a character has a low DEX, then every skill governed by DEX will never be able to shine as high as it used to in 3rd edition.
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  #30  
Old October 6th, 2014, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
Here's a question for those of you playing 5th edition: I like how the finicky skill points are a thing of the past. They were always a nightmare of bookkeeping. I see now, if you're good at something, you roll an attribute check, and if you're really good at that skill, then you are considered "advantaged". Therefore, you roll twice and take the higher of the two rolls.
You've conflated two different unrelated (but interacting) mechanics.

Mechanic 1: proficiency.
If you do anything (except a death save), you get to add one attribute bonus. If you are proficient, you get to add your proficiency bonus (once only). Proficiency is +2 (1st-4th levels) through +6 (17th-20th).

It doesn't affect at all whether you roll with advantage/disadvantage.

Mechanic 2: Advantage/Disadvantage
If there is anything that would be significant benefit other than attribute or proficiency, you have advantage.
If there is anything that would be a significant penalty, other than non-proficiency or low attribute, you have disadvantage.

If you have neither or both advantage and disadvantage, you roll 1d20.
If you have advantage (one or more) but not disadvantage, you roll 1d20 twice, keeping the high roll.
If you have disadvantage (one or more) but not advantage, you roll 1d20 twice, keeping the low roll.

It doesn't matter how many advantages you have, a single disadvantage kills them all. It doesn't matter how many disadvantages you have, a single advantage kills them. Moreover, no matter how many different grants of advantage on a given roll, it's still only 2d20k1H, and no matter how many disadvantages, disadvantage is still only 2d20k1L.

There are never DM's to checks (ability, attack, or save) from circumstances in 5E. Never. If it's a bonus, it grants advantage. If it's a penalty, it's disadvantage. There are some modifiers from circumstance to AC.

Proficiency never grants advantage.
The only proficiencies which cause disadvantage on lack are armor proficiencies, and only when wearing armor you're not proficient in.

A handful of class features grant a second attribute bonus, a few others add a bonus die of some kind. A number grant advantage in specific circumstances. Several classes have a feature doubling the proficiency bonus for specific acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB, p. 144; PBR p. 44
If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells.
Note that the Player's Basic Rules are a free download from WotC... I don't have the link handy, but you can peruse them at your leisure.

Spoiler contains notes on what's in PBR, versus the PHB. (Spoilered for length)
Spoiler:

The PBR contains all of the material from
Chapter 1 (char gen overview)
Chapter 7 Using Ability Scores (the task mechanic)
Chapter 9 Combat
Chapter 10 Spellcasting
Appendix A - Conditions

And most of:
chapter 8 Adventuring
Appendix B - Gods of the Multiverse
Appendix D - Creature Statistics

Excerpts From
Chapter 2 Races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling)
Chapter 3 Classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard)
Chapter 4 Personality and Background (all the personality rules, limited number of backgrounds)
Chapter 5 Equipment (all the rules, but very little non-rules content)
Chapter 11 Spells (only the spells on the wizard list)

Missing from Basic:
Chapter 6 Customization Options


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
How does that play?
The game is more attribute driven than ever before.

Mind you, all my play has been at Tier 1 (levels 1-4), and Adventurer's League play, so it's all standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8)... Which, when the +2 attribute factors in, puts the range of mods for PC's from -1 (Att 8, not proficient) to +7 (Rogue, in his double proficiency bonus skill, with att 16 or 17). None of my players have hit Level 4... but that will increase the peak by +1 more...

Advantage is thus almost, but not quite, a guarantee on DC's below modifier +13... and almost a guaranteed fail if DC is ≥ 7+modifier.

It's VERY smooth in play. It's fast. There's no "What's the modifier?" lookups - either it's cover (which is an AC bonus), or advantage or disadvantage. Players stop wheedling for mods at getting advantage, because there's no further benefit. Likewise, if they have an inspiration unused, they often won't bother trying to wheedle out of it, because it's easier just to burn their inspiration to nullify it.

Long range? It's at disad already, so don't bother with anything other than cover or magic... or a PC looking for some form of free advantage (and at range, that's a bit hard to justify MOST of the time).

Guys on either side of you? GM's call, but if you're tactically minded, you can implement flanking as a GM's call on attacks, and not actually be a house-rule. (It's an application of PHB 179/PBR 57, on advantage/disadvantage.)

And that extra 2 points of modifier from proficiency? It's huge when combined with advantage.

I'm running the encounters version of Hoard of the Dragon Queen. The typical DC's are in the 12-20 range. And I'm getting plenty of failures...

By the same token, 1st levels are a credible threat (if an extremely squishy one) to young dragons and even adult dragons. Mind you, the dragon's AC is only around 19... Oh, and 2 1st level spellcasters can be a deadly threat to any starting PC.

For me, there's really one thing bugging me: the following spells are missing... Continual Light, Transmute Rock To Mud. (Anyone who's played in my older D&D games is aware of my worldbuilding use of these. Continual Flame is NOT a substitute for the "near daylight" of a Continual Light.)
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