Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > Mongoose Traveller

Mongoose Traveller Discussion forums for the Traveller rules from Mongoose Publishing.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old March 5th, 2010, 12:30 AM
Solomani666's Avatar
Solomani666 Solomani666 is offline
Citizen: SOC-6
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 18
Gallery : 0
Solomani666 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Actually, no, not canon in the sense that a week in jump is canon; not since 1992. TNE and T4 use kL per year... and not much even then. They are canon, so canon is in a dual state... and Gareth picked the less sensible choice of the two, presumably out of ignorance of the other option and its closer relationship to reality.

Keep in mind... doing a little back of the envelope calculation, a single liter of mixed duterium & tritium (in the ratio 2D to 4T) is 8442467 MJ of recoverable energy (ignorign Neutron energy, thus accounting for the 80% loss to the neutron; if you can recover the neutrons, multiply that by 5); at 250 MW, 33769.868 seconds per liter, or 9.3 hours per liter, or 70L per 28days... Assuming a whoppingly bad 1% efficiency, 7kl per 28 days per 1Td drive... half a ton fuel per ton of drive per month is about as much fuel as can be credibly swallowed.

Your best fusion drives, presuming they have the same rates of power out as MT/TNE peak, are 1/4th as efficient, or 0.25% recovery.

Oh, and using the "cool it with hydrogen" doesn't fly, either; the energy you can pump in it is pretty darned low before it energetically finds its way out of confinement...

And as maneuver fuel? you're far better off with much denser materials for reaction mass. water is 14x as dense, and more easily magnetized... and mercury is another 9x that and much easier to accellerate... smaller tank, smaller tank mass. Heck, Amonia and Methane are better for reaction mass than LHyd.

It's one of those issues that resulted in MT and T4 explicitly using reactionless thrusters for the 3I.

In any case, however, accepting a 3000+ year old and 6 TL old technology as being in the 1% efficiency range is a stretch. It's reasonable to expect at TL9 a 1% efficiency (by assuming a 90% capture of energy and 90% overhead cost), but not TL15. Heck, current issues are that the current peak efficiency is about -20%, due to energy capture losses, from what I last read... that is, the recoverable energy is 80% of the overhead of causing fusion.

Now, the other thing is that about TL12, fusion should get a MAJOR energy boost, since neutron energy should be recapturable, given the introduction of damper tech, and other TL12-15 advances (and thus cutting fuel use by up to a factor of 5).
*
*

Now let's start this over again with the (highly inefficient) 4H reactors found in most Imperial starships and not the (optimal) tritium deuterium reactors you speak of...

...then account for unrefined fuel in some cases...

...a powerplant that sacrifices efficiency for durability, reliability, and ease of mantenance...

...Due to above reasons the power plant may be simply be either on or off...

...Shields but does not recollect neutron energy due to the extra cost, maintenance and mass...

...Provides an unspcified amount of power to grav plates, acceleration dampeners, thrusters and weapons...

...Uses a large portion of it's fuel as coollant for both the power plant and the ship in general...

...Uses hydrogen to create a warp bubble around the ship, and cool it, while in jumpspace...

The very nature of the Imperium dictates that any advances in technology take literally HUNDREDS OF YEARS to become commonplace.

I ame sure that somewher in Core there are the efficient, cutting edge, powerplants in ships that you speak of, and the infistructure to support them, but it will be several hundreds of years before most 'travellers' see them in the Spinward Marches.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old March 5th, 2010, 01:29 AM
captainjack's Avatar
captainjack captainjack is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 662
Gallery : 0
captainjack Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MongooseMatt View Post
Quote right, just had a chat to Charlotte about this.

The new system is that enquiries go straight to her. However, they _must_ be addressed to her email and they _must_ have the S&P submission enquiry in the subject header, or they run a very real risk of getting missed.

Charlotte goes through these mails twice a week and responds to them all - so, if you have not heard anything within a week, something has gone wrong. Drop her another line.
One submission, well before Christmas, (I think, possibly before Thanksgiving ) several weeks and an email later, comes the answer:"we're busy and haven't gotten to it yet ". Fair enough. Then: Three to four lines dropped, three or so months , no response, nothing, not even "no thank you".

So what now, Matt ?
__________________
_________________
Captainjack23, KOD
Marquis d'Remulak, Sol 1833

My Traveller, OD&D and obsessive game design Blog:

Crawdads and Dragons

Current development projects
Adventurer What if Original D&D was written for traveller !
Bricks and Basilisks: RPG Gaming with <ahem> modular and trademarked brick construction system minifigs !

I think the true measure of virtue is not how we treat people when they give us what we want,
but how we treat people when we are denied that.

Last edited by captainjack; March 5th, 2010 at 01:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old March 5th, 2010, 01:43 AM
Solomani666's Avatar
Solomani666 Solomani666 is offline
Citizen: SOC-6
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 18
Gallery : 0
Solomani666 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
I find it amusing that we (RPGers) are so quick to accept that fusion will generate several orders of magnitude more power at several orders of magnitude less cost, but are shocked that efficiency should not be comparable to an internal combustion engine.

What is the efficiency of a modern fusion reactor?
Last I heard, the goal was still 'break-even'.

How much energy does a high pressure magnetic confinement bottle require?
Last I heard it was enough to make many question whether it could ever be a viable rocket nozzle.

Even at 0.1% efficiency, the Traveller Fusion reactor would still be a cheaper way to generate power than a fuel cell or fission.


As an aside, most theoretical research on reactionless propulsion suggest that it would be unimaginably power intensive (like generating black holes power intensive). This suggests that all of the handwavium (reactionless thrusters, grav plates, inertial compensation) will require every bit of power that can be extracted from that hydrogen. Think iron as the exhaust.


With respect to 'multiple reactors', I agree that ships should have multiple reactors. However, I also feel that initiating a multi-megawatt output controlled fission reaction using simple hydrogen and generating negligible radiation or waste heat should require more time than 'turn the key and start her up' - like an automobile engine. IMTU I like an hour startup.

So if you intend to save fuel by shutting down the weapon's fusion power plant, don't expect to ge able to maneuver and shoot at the same time for less than an hour.
*
*
FYI Fusion power does exist today and actually works:
Google Video: Bussard Fusion
(A boron11 and hydrogen reaction actually results in 'no extra neutrons' hence no radiation after the reactor is turned off!)
It is the ONLY combination in the periodic table that does not result in lingering radiation. (3 x He4 is the byproduct)

Remember that in the Traveller universe, pure (sometimes tainted) hydrogen is used in fusion reactors aka 4H reactors. (4 hydrogen atoms are fused into 1helium atom.) This is a VERY innefficient way of producing a fusion reaction compared to fusing say tritium and deuterium and does not yield the same power output, but the fuel is usually free.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old March 5th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Jame's Avatar
Jame Jame is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Generally, Damascaa Towns
Posts: 7,755
Gallery : 0
Jame Citizen
Default

I submitted my retcon to S&P; they published it in Signs and Portents issue 76. (A link will come in, eventually.) If you wish, read it and see what you think.
__________________
Member #5, Bring Back T5 in LBBs.

"Unfortunately, the Publishers regret that they can enter into no correspondence on this matter. If the Publishers are involved in any correspondence, they shall trace and revoke your mail priveleges."

Baron Damaascaa Towns, Kiikigulii, 1735 Sakhag/Antares
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old March 5th, 2010, 01:07 PM
Mithras's Avatar
Mithras Mithras is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,002
Gallery : 2
Mithras Citizen
Default

I think its a great 'retcon' I've adopted it wholesale.

Thanks Jame!
__________________
Paul Elliott
ORBITAL: The Solar System Setting for Traveller, a hard setting full of TL 9 technology, rockets, landers, Orion capsules and colonies on Mercury, Mars and the moons of Jupiter and Saturn.

http://zozer.weebly.com/orbital.html
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old March 6th, 2010, 12:34 PM
Solomani666's Avatar
Solomani666 Solomani666 is offline
Citizen: SOC-6
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 18
Gallery : 0
Solomani666 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I submitted my retcon to S&P; they published it in Signs and Portents issue 76. (A link will come in, eventually.) If you wish, read it and see what you think.
Excellent!

I will be using those rules for a sublight ship I need to design and for satellights and base stations.

For simplicity sake when designing regular ships I simply replace the word "week" with the word "month".
__________________
IMTU tc+ tm+ mgt++ ge 3i+ c+ jt- au ls pi+ ta he+
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:05 AM
cryingblackoil cryingblackoil is offline
Citizen: SOC-5
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12
Gallery : 0
cryingblackoil Citizen
Default

Silliest...argument...ever.

Arguing over how much power an, as yet, non-workable science would make and multiple, as yet, non-existent sciences require.

I can't believe I read this whole thread. Either take the rules and use them or spend the time make up your own.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old September 14th, 2011, 05:53 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,027
Gallery : 53
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cryingblackoil View Post
Silliest...argument...ever.

Arguing over how much power an, as yet, non-workable science would make and multiple, as yet, non-existent sciences require.

I can't believe I read this whole thread. Either take the rules and use them or spend the time make up your own.
Fusion is VERY MUCH real science. It's being done daily by several labs... at a net energy loss. We know how much energy is released per reaction, and how many reactions that can be sustained per unit mass of fusibles...

the fuel use rates in Traveller are comparable to tactical nuclear weapon rates... So we need an explanation why that much energy isn't vaporizing the engines. And where the rest of it is going.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:48 PM
atpollard's Avatar
atpollard atpollard is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 9,321
Gallery : 43
Visit atpollard's Blog
atpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesome
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Fusion is VERY MUCH real science. It's being done daily by several labs... at a net energy loss. We know how much energy is released per reaction, and how many reactions that can be sustained per unit mass of fusibles...

the fuel use rates in Traveller are comparable to tactical nuclear weapon rates... So we need an explanation why that much energy isn't vaporizing the engines. And where the rest of it is going.
Traveller achieves 0.001% fusion efficiency (99.999% of the energy goes back into maintaining the magic bubble that can withstand the temperatures and pressures).
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:55 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,027
Gallery : 53
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
Traveller achieves 0.001% fusion efficiency (99.999% of the energy goes back into maintaining the magic bubble that can withstand the temperatures and pressures).
At which point, most of the surface area should be radiators... the energy HAS to go elsewhere... it's part of the laws of thermodynamics...

Traveller PP fuel rates only make sense in story-mode, not in any kind of realism mode.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fuel consumption JAFARR The Fleet 16 September 16th, 2009 10:35 AM
Fuel-n magmagmag The Fleet 6 July 2nd, 2008 09:26 AM
Jump engines fuel vs. Power plant fuel Bishop Odo The Fleet 16 January 7th, 2003 12:22 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.