Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Cepheus Engine > Cepheus General

Cepheus General General discussion of Cepheus Engine products.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old May 14th, 2019, 03:25 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,193
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymin View Post
Correct. But the volume it occupies depends on the pressure and temperature it is stored at. ;-)
True if it is a pressurised gas forced into the liquid state, but you are storing it as a cryogenic or potentially an artificial gravity field compression to the liquid state liquid... pressure has very little to do with it if you are keeping it liquid cryogenically.

The reason we use cryogenic liquid hydrogen as a rocket fuel rather than pressurised hydrogen gas/liquid is the pressure vessel would be so massive the rocket wouldn't take off in the first place.

This has actually got me thinking - does it actually state anywhere in Traveller that the liquid hydrogen is cryogenic or grav compressed. It can not be a pressure vessel since that would take up considerable space within the hull, and yet fuel tankage in traveller is considered to be just the fuel which has implications to the storage method.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; May 14th, 2019 at 03:42 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old May 14th, 2019, 03:30 PM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,601
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Citizen++whulorigan Citizen++whulorigan Citizen++whulorigan Citizen++whulorigan Citizen++
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymin View Post
Correct. But the volume it occupies depends on the pressure and temperature it is stored at. ;-)

I was just trying to point out how silly this discussion is. It's inappropriately Terran-centric to assume Earth pressure and temperature as the norm for determining what volume a certain mass of hydrogen will fill.

(I wanted to say the Imperial Standards office was on Reference, which makes more in-setting sense, but the gravity is too light there to make the hand-wave work.)
I do not really have an iron in the fire in this discussion, but just to be clear:

The definition of a liquid is that is (largely) "non-compressible", meaning that it always fills approximately the same volume for the liquid phase of its temperature/pressure range, unlike a gas which can expand and contract with temperature and pressure. Removal of pressure (or increase in temperature) will cause a liquid to remain at (roughly) the same volume until a critical value is reached, at which point it will boil into its gaseous phase. Sufficiently high pressure (or low temperature) will cause it to transform into a solid phase.
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old May 14th, 2019, 03:40 PM
jaymin jaymin is offline
Citizen: SOC-8
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Winchester, Mass.
Posts: 31
Gallery : 0
jaymin Citizen-
Send a message via AIM to jaymin
Default

Touche. I guess I'll have to try harder to prove how silly this discussion is.
__________________
CORE
Sol Station
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old May 15th, 2019, 12:41 AM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,159
Gallery : 0
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

The following quote comes from the bottom of page 120 concerning ship construction.

Quote:
Standard: A standard-hull ship may still enter atmosphere but is very ungainly and ponderous, capable only of making a controlled glide to the surface. Getting it back into space requires an elaborate launch setup and considerable expense.
As near as I can tell, this "elaborate launch setup and considerable expense" is not covered any where in the book. Am I missing something, or it is simply not there? There is no mention of it under Starship Economics, where I would expect it to be.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 30 Blog Entry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.

Last edited by timerover51; May 15th, 2019 at 10:20 PM.. Reason: Correcting Word
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old May 15th, 2019, 10:19 PM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,159
Gallery : 0
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras View Post
But that results in *exactly the same result*. The end result is the same. What you get out at the end is the same. I'm not sure why there is an argument there? Timerover, have you built any vehicles yet, that aren't ships? What did you think of them? Try not to focus on real world designs, no design system so far has achieved creating a perfect 1:1 match for real world designs.
Paul, I basically do exactly what you did in Attack Squadron: Roswell, and that is take Real World vehicles and adapt them to the game. I have a large amount of data, some in hard copy and some in digital format, on a very wide range of vehicles. This covers historical land, sea, and air vehicles. I can choose exactly what I want and then adapt as needed.

The biggest problem is trying to figure out armor equivalents, as those are not clearly defined in the rules either, and the application is more than a bit strange. The following statement appears on page 121 under the Ship Construction Rules.

Quote:
For example, a heavily armored warship might take Bonded Superdense armor twice. This would take up 10% of the hulls volume and cost 100% of the base cost of the hull, but give 12 points of armor
Emphasis added.

Basically, that says that if you add Bonded Superdense Armor twice to a 1000 displacement ton hull, the armor takes up 100 tons of the ships volume. How is that possible? It would mean adding, in English units, about 50,000 cubic feet of armor to the ship. Standard steel armor weighs about 480 per cubic foot. I assume that Superdense means an armor twice as dense as steel, so 960 pounds per cubic foot. That amounts to 24,000 short tons (a short ton is equal to 2,000 pounds) of armor to the ship. That is on par with the total armor carried by the Japanese Battleship Yamato. And all that mass of armor only increases the cost of the hull by a 100% and supplies an armor protection of 12. Do your deck plans reflect that loss of all of that internal space to armor? Is there any reflection on the addition of all of that mass in your Maneuver Drive requirements?l All of that mass has to be accelerated in some manner. Then there is all of the framing and supporting structure within the ship to support that massive weight.

Now, if this ship was a nautical vessel, 1000 dTons will equate to about 14,000 displacement tons, based on about 14 cubic meters per dTon. One cubic meter of water is equal to 1 metric ton. The ship now weighs 24,000 short tons or 21,772 metric tons plus whatever the rest of the ship weighs. It promptly sinks, as it weighs far more than the water it displaces. Has anyone bothered to stop and think about what that rule statement implies?
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 30 Blog Entry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old May 15th, 2019, 11:11 PM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,159
Gallery : 0
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

On page 79, under Common Vehicles, the Tech Level 9 Destroyer carries 6 gunners and no weapons.

The Ground Car has an armor of 6, while the submersible has an armor of 3. The submersible has to deal with a lot of outside pressure that the ground car does not. That should imply a higher level of armor for the submersible. The motor boat has the same level of armor as the sub.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 30 Blog Entry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old May 17th, 2019, 04:47 AM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,159
Gallery : 0
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

This question concerns Personal Armor, pages 67 and 68.

The armor Tech Levels given in the table do not match the armor Tech Levels given in the written description for Cloth, Hostile Environment Vacc Suit, Mesh, and Vacc Suit. In the Table, the Hostile Environment Vacc Suit is listed at Tech Level 12 and in the written description at Tech Level 8.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 30 Blog Entry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old May 17th, 2019, 02:06 PM
middenface's Avatar
middenface middenface is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 164
Gallery : 34
middenface Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
This question concerns Personal Armor, pages 67 and 68.

The armor Tech Levels given in the table do not match the armor Tech Levels given in the written description for Cloth, Hostile Environment Vacc Suit, Mesh, and Vacc Suit. In the Table, the Hostile Environment Vacc Suit is listed at Tech Level 12 and in the written description at Tech Level 8.
Written descriptions are correct. The table is not.
The POD version corrected this.
I replied to a post elsewhere and I mentioned this already.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old May 18th, 2019, 06:22 PM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,159
Gallery : 0
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by middenface View Post
Written descriptions are correct. The table is not.
The POD version corrected this.
I replied to a post elsewhere and I mentioned this already.
Quote:
Standard: A standard-hull ship may still enter atmosphere but is very ungainly and ponderous, capable only of making a controlled glide to the surface. Getting it back into space requires an elaborate launch setup and considerable expense.
As you have responded to that issue, how about this one?

Then there is the issue of armor taking up part of a ship's volume. Perhaps you could explain that as well.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 30 Blog Entry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old May 19th, 2019, 07:52 PM
Straybow's Avatar
Straybow Straybow is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: not too hot, not too cold
Posts: 1,657
Gallery : 0
Straybow Citizen
Default

I believe that this is how armor was measured going back to High Guard. A ship is defined by volume, and so armor takes up volume. Normally we would put the armor on the outside, but that would make the ship bigger, which changes it's size. So the armor volume is deducted instead of added.
__________________
(\__/). Save a bunny, eat more Smurf! (Brought to you by the National Smurfmeat Council)
(='.'=) Smurf, the original blue meat! 1999, and (except that "Smurf" bit)
(")_(") tc+ ru- c+ au+ ls- pi he++ eti=0 !zuchai(=dilithium)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cepheus Engine Cepheus Engine RPG POD middenface TAS News Feed 0 March 25th, 2018 02:36 PM
The Wiki, Cepheus and 3PP Nathan Brazil Wiki Discussion 9 October 13th, 2017 03:20 PM
Where to get the Cepheus SRDs? timerover51 Cepheus General 1 September 8th, 2017 05:08 PM
Cepheus adventures Blue Ghost Cepheus General 45 June 27th, 2017 07:35 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.