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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #1  
Old June 16th, 2001, 02:06 PM
mjwest mjwest is offline
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After having fun with AMV's HGS program, I want to ask something that used to bug me in my active-playing years.

While I understand that most of the ships in Supplement 9, and in other places, don't actually add up, I have never understood why they intentionally broke the rules on two "main" ships.

The most common, of course, is the X-boat. I know why they did it, but it would have been nice for it to be explicitly mentioned as a one-time exception. Also, while it was necessary for Book 2, it would have been nice if they would have "corrected" the ship for Book 5 and Supp 9.

The most annoying is the Gazelle. Why does a 300 ton ship have 4 hardpoints? They can put 4 hardpoints on the Fiery if they want, but the Gazelle should only have 3!

Sorry for the gripe, but those two have always annoyed me.
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Old June 16th, 2001, 03:19 PM
DaveShayne DaveShayne is offline
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mjwest:
After having fun with AMV's HGS program, I want to ask something that used to bug me in my active-playing years.

While I understand that most of the ships in Supplement 9, and in other places, don't actually add up, I have never understood why they intentionally broke the rules on two "main" ships.

The most common, of course, is the X-boat. I know why they did it, but it would have been nice for it to be explicitly mentioned as a one-time exception. Also, while it was necessary for Book 2, it would have been nice if they would have "corrected" the ship for Book 5 and Supp 9.

The most annoying is the Gazelle. Why does a 300 ton ship have 4 hardpoints? They can put 4 hardpoints on the Fiery if they want, but the Gazelle should only have 3!

Sorry for the gripe, but those two have always annoyed me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's wrong with the X-Boat? As far as I know it's a perfectly legal Book 2 design.

With the drop tanks installed the Gazelle is a 400 ton ship hence it can mount 4 hardpoints. This may seem like a silly ruling and could lead to abuse but there you jave it.




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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.

David Shayne
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Old June 17th, 2001, 02:12 AM
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AndreaV AndreaV is offline
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The real answer for both is the authors stuffed up. I've spent ages trying to redesign the X-Boat to fit HG with little success (you can find my best shot in the ct-starships list file area). However, since the X-Boat really is never going to be a PC ship I don't worry too much. The Gazzelle is a lot more annoying, for my games, I've dropped a turret.
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Old June 17th, 2001, 03:09 PM
DaveShayne DaveShayne is offline
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
The real answer for both is the authors stuffed up. I've spent ages trying to redesign the X-Boat to fit HG with little success (you can find my best shot in the ct-starships list file area). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using book 2 for the X-boat I get
Jump B(4) = 15 tons
Fuel = 40 tons
Bridge = 20 tons
Comp 4 = 4 tons
2 Staterooms = 8 tons
cargo = 1 ton
which leaves 12 tons unused. Perhaps these are the data banks.

Under High Guard we get
Jump4 = 5 tons
Power Plant 4 = 8 tons
Fuel = 44 tons
Bridge = 20 tons
Comp 4 = 4 tons
2 Staterooms = 8 tons
cargo = 1 ton
leaving 10 tons for the data banks.

So am I missing something or is all of this extra space the problem you are refering to?




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I am increasingly of the opinion that RPGs are by the nature of their creation subjective phenomenon. due to the interaction between game designers, game masters, and game players all definitions, rules, settings, and adventures are mutable in acordance with the uncertainty principle as expounded by Heisenburg. This is of course merely my point of view.

David Shayne
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Old June 18th, 2001, 10:31 AM
J J is offline
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveShayne:
Using book 2 for the X-boat I get
Jump B(4) = 15 tons
Fuel = 40 tons
Bridge = 20 tons
Comp 4 = 4 tons
2 Staterooms = 8 tons
cargo = 1 ton
which leaves 12 tons unused. Perhaps these are the data banks.

Under High Guard we get
Jump4 = 5 tons
Power Plant 4 = 8 tons
Fuel = 44 tons
Bridge = 20 tons
Comp 4 = 4 tons
2 Staterooms = 8 tons
cargo = 1 ton
leaving 10 tons for the data banks.

So am I missing something or is all of this extra space the problem you are refering to?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be a legal Book 2 design you'll need a power plant, a model B will do giving a PP-4 to to power the jump drive. But a PP-4 by Book 2 rules requires another 40t of fuel, putting you way over the limit. But the fuel calculations in Book 2 are a bit screwy anyway.

Supp 7 dodges this issue by saying it's a custom built jump drive that includes a power plant.

The HG design leaves 11t spare which could quite easily be used for a manuever drive, which most people would see as useful

The closest I got was buy building the ship at TL 9 and fitting a TL 13 Jump drive, this leaves just 7 tons for cargo.

At TL 15 theres 15t. I usually write this off as additional cargo, data banks and crew living area.

The Gazelle was probably designed in between Book 2 and Book 5, while high guard was still in development. I've always hated drop tanks and if you read the TNS articles from the CT period you get the impression that they are an experiment that didn't work too well.

I use two versions of the Gazelle one with three turrets and drop tanks. The second is a straight forward 400 tons with 4 turrets.

J.
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  #6  
Old June 18th, 2001, 03:00 PM
DaveShayne DaveShayne is offline
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J:
To be a legal Book 2 design you'll need a power plant, a model B will do giving a PP-4 to to power the jump drive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay. I did reread my copies of the rules and your (mostly) right. The first edition of book 2 says, "Each starship is fitted with a power plant...." and later, "The installed power plant must be of a letter type at least equal to the drive letter of the installed manuever drive." Obviously the designers of the X-Boat went with the language at the end of the drives description rather than the language at the start.

You are of course absolutely correct using the language in the second edition of the rules, "In all cases, the power plant letter must equal or exceed either the manuever drive letter or the jump drive lettter, whichever is higher."

Now if we use the 1st edition of the rules then we can still salvage the X-boat by installing a type A power plant with a smaller than average fuel load. Which agrees well with the stated 3 day endurance (I do hope they meant three days counting from emergence from jump.) which is shorter than average.

For what it's worth I prefer the starship construction rules from the first edition over the second although the second edition rules agree with High Guard better.

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