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  #31  
Old September 26th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Echo Echo is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamus View Post
When you compare the success of warhammer 40k to any and all versions of traveller i would say that maybe traveller could use a few 40k elements.

Dark Heresy is a great system and even better setting in terms of depth and continuity. That said of all the versions of Traveller released I think it could be argued that MonTrav is the best. I know some of you guys are still hanging on to your CT + house rules and thats great, it really is but dont try to argue that a 1956 VW with a bunch of sheet metal and after market parts tacked on is a better car than the 2008 mustang. Thats just crazy talk. It like those guys over at wotc who spend all day argueing the OD&D purple box is far superior to 4ed. its ridiculous.
I'm not sure about the comparitive success between the two game releases this year. I know both sold out on initial print runs, but I suspect that Dark Heresy was stalled a bit, after the confusion with Black Industries being shut down. Mongoose Traveller, apparently has now sold out on three print runs however.

In terms of production standards, DH is clearly a full colour, high quality book, so on that grounds it trumps Traveller. I have to say though, that compared to the WFRP system, I found the DH system a little bland and over-conventionalised. I found the Traveller systems much more fun to play, whilst the fact that it wasn't specifically tied to a single setting meant I could get more creative use from it. Just my view, of course.

I do agree that all the factionalisation of Traveller, through various editions, is unhealthy though.
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  #32  
Old September 26th, 2008, 04:52 PM
danbuter danbuter is offline
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One thing about MGT, the main writer is from Ireland and the publishers are from Britain. I doubt they have much, if any, actual experience handling a real firearm. Which is too bad.
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  #33  
Old September 26th, 2008, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by danbuter View Post
One thing about MGT, the main writer is from Ireland and the publishers are from Britain. I doubt they have much, if any, actual experience handling a real firearm. Which is too bad.
Yes, which might explain the difference between gun damage in CT and in MGT. I would solve this by making handgun damage 3d6 (body pistols 2d6) and longarm damage 3d6+3.
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  #34  
Old September 26th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Allensh Allensh is offline
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Yes, which might explain the difference between gun damage in CT and in MGT. I would solve this by making handgun damage 3d6 (body pistols 2d6) and longarm damage 3d6+3.
Do you have the old Judges Guild Traveller Referee Screen for CT? It is somewhat instructive to look at...as its weapon damages for many weapons are almost exactly the same as MGT's. Those damages were based on the "first edition" of CT, and were later changed in 'second edition' (around, I believe, 1981...the versions that are in the reprints). Were they changed to make the game more accurate...or more playable? I think it was the latter.

Allen
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  #35  
Old September 26th, 2008, 10:54 PM
far-trader far-trader is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allensh View Post
Do you have the old Judges Guild Traveller Referee Screen for CT? It is somewhat instructive to look at...as its weapon damages for many weapons are almost exactly the same as MGT's. Those damages were based on the "first edition" of CT, and were later changed in 'second edition' (around, I believe, 1981...the versions that are in the reprints). Were they changed to make the game more accurate...or more playable? I think it was the latter.

Allen
More playable for sure.

But you're not saying MGT went with the originals because it was more accurate and less playable are you? It's clearly not more accurate in any real way. And I don't think you mean they made a deliberate move to make it less playable.
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  #36  
Old September 26th, 2008, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamus View Post
When you compare the success of warhammer 40k to any and all versions of traveller i would say that maybe traveller could use a few 40k elements.
Well, we've now got shuriken catapults. Can gretchen really be that far behind?

However, I am skeptical that amateurish attempts to lift miscellaneous wargear from WH40K will net the MGT design team anything but well deserved ridicule. And maybe just a little pity.

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That said of all the versions of Traveller released I think it could be argued that MonTrav is the best.
Ah, a new definition of the word "best"...

In any case, baldy stating something is *not* the same as making a coherent, well-supported argument.

Quote:
I know some of you guys are still hanging on to your CT + house rules and thats great, it really is but dont try to argue that a 1956 VW with a bunch of sheet metal and after market parts tacked on is a better car than the 2008 mustang. Thats just crazy talk.
Maybe so, but what's *really* delusional is comparing MGT to a 2008 Mustang... More like a 2008 Yugo (if Yugos were still being made).

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It like those guys over at wotc who spend all day argueing the OD&D purple box is far superior to 4ed. its ridiculous.
I dunno...I think you're stretching here. Are you actually saying that plagiarizing WH40K is a *good* move for MGT?

Last edited by tbeard1999; September 26th, 2008 at 11:36 PM..
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  #37  
Old September 26th, 2008, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allensh View Post
Do you have the old Judges Guild Traveller Referee Screen for CT? It is somewhat instructive to look at...as its weapon damages for many weapons are almost exactly the same as MGT's. Those damages were based on the "first edition" of CT, and were later changed in 'second edition' (around, I believe, 1981...the versions that are in the reprints). Were they changed to make the game more accurate...or more playable? I think it was the latter.
Allen
The changes were first made in Snapshot in 1979. The major change was that all weapon damage was converted to a certain number of dice with no modifiers. This made the CT damage mechanic much easier to utilize.

However, it seems silly to me for a game designer to uncritically adapt CT damages. CT's combat system distinguished between penetration and damage; MGT does not. MGT damage (poorly) tries to represent both damage and penetration. Therefore uncritically adopting CT damage without reference to penetration is rather odd.

In any case, MGT's damage and armor model is (IMHO) badly conceived and poorly implemented. While the worst problems can be fixed, it's hard for me to see the point.
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  #38  
Old September 27th, 2008, 02:30 AM
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It's much easier to take MGT characters and drop them into other editions task/combat/damage models than to fix what's in the book for realism.
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  #39  
Old September 27th, 2008, 03:38 AM
Icosahedron Icosahedron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danbuter View Post
One thing about MGT, the main writer is from Ireland and the publishers are from Britain. I doubt they have much, if any, actual experience handling a real firearm. Which is too bad.
IMHO, if anything Ireland and Britain have had too much experience in handling firearms, but we'll not pursue that point.

I know what you're saying, but anyone can look up figures, even if they've never seen a gun. It just seems that, by all accounts, Mongoose didn't bother. There are many people, even here in the UK, who have handled weapons and could provide advice - if they were asked.
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  #40  
Old September 27th, 2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Icosahedron View Post
IMHO, if anything Ireland and Britain have had too much experience in handling firearms, but we'll not pursue that point.

I know what you're saying, but anyone can look up figures, even if they've never seen a gun. It just seems that, by all accounts, Mongoose didn't bother. There are many people, even here in the UK, who have handled weapons and could provide advice - if they were asked.
The galling thing is that it's never been easier or cheaper to educate oneself on such matters. I've never fired a TOW-2B antitank guided missile, but my wargames rules accurately model their real world performance. And I'm an amateur designer. I'd expect the professionals to do at least as well.

For that matter. clear and concise descriptions of weaponry can be found in past Traveller supplements. Things like "assault rifle" and "SMG" are clearly identified (and in most cases, 20th century equivalents are given). And tools like Excel make it absurdly easy to develop models for things like damage and penetration.

It just ain't that hard...
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