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  #11  
Old February 22nd, 2008, 08:19 PM
hunter hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal View Post
All in all, I don't have it inside me to muster up the raw outrage at the piracy. If it became widespread enough that Marc were to give up on Traveller all together, or that other companies were going bankrupt - then yeah, I'd be unhappy. I just don't think it has hit those levels as yet.
yay...

I didn't post this for a debate. I will not tolerate it in the slightest here. Period.
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  #12  
Old February 22nd, 2008, 09:50 PM
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What the average person doesn't understand is...

The profit margins on games are already low enough.

If a copy get stolen, and is not sold, then the company has to typically sell 3 to 5 Different copies to make up for the loss, because they pay people to write, to ship, etc. People like ME, like lots of people here.

With respect to Hal's "It doesn't affect me, so so what?" Good luck.

It affects other people.
  #13  
Old February 22nd, 2008, 10:04 PM
sablewyvern sablewyvern is offline
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While I essentially agree with Hal on the general topic of piracy, that doesn't change the fact that, wherever you stand on the issue, pirating Traveller materials on a Traveller board frequented by the authors/owners/distributors of said material (and, possibly owned and administered by those people, I'm not sure of the specifics) is, at the very least incredibly rude, stupid and entirely innapropriate. Which, I should think, is fairly obvious.
  #14  
Old February 23rd, 2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter View Post
yay...

I didn't post this for a debate. I will not tolerate it in the slightest here. Period.
I'm going to go on a limb here and presume that Hunter meant that he will not tolerate piracy rather than debate on piracy

When I saw the statement by Hunter - I could very easily have assumed it was a policy statement and let it go at that. I do see however, a longish list of posts where people voice their moral outrage etc.

As stated, I do NOT support piracy in and of itself, but I also don't agree that it is a HUGELY horrible thing that requires that I muster outrage on the same level as that of Darfur or the Serbian Massacre of civilians via sniper fire, or the asssassination of an individual via radioactives for a horrible death. I am also going to make a single point and then drop my participation in this thread...

If there is to be no discussion or debate on this - No problem. I actually agree with the points of view expressed - sans the seeming moral outrage. I do think it somewhat ironic if the statement was not intended to encourage debate, and a bunch of people weigh in with a "me too" commentary. Either it is acceptable to comment on the stance taken or it is not. If all that is wanted in an echo chamber, then that is how it will come across to any stranger who happens across this thread.

Points to be made: Yes, it is illegal to pirate intellectual property. Yes, I agree with those sentiments enough to offer non-disclosure agreements UNASKED by authors when I talk with them on a private basis. Before the GRAND FLEET PDF came out, I had a chance to view it in its relative unpolished state and I was VERY appreciative of that priveledge. No one ever received a copy of it from me, and when it came out officially, I purchased a copy of it. None the less, I think that people are going off on the deep end primarily because I honestly believe that the piracy aspect, while not actively helping the authors directly, also doesn't hurt them in a major way. Yes, they're getting a free ride, and yes, it outrages those who pay their way. I do think however, that some people may want to visit the website of Baen at
http://www.baen.com/library/ and see some of the issues behind intellectual property and sales of material over the internet to perhaps understand why I even bothered to point it out.

If there is to be no open and honest discussion without resulting in hostility, I might just as well keep my mouth shut and think that my thoughts aren't welcome - which in turn means I should just mosey on out and not give a backwards glance. Truth be told, I'm not taking this on a personal level purely because I don't think Hunter meant "no debate" but instead, meant "I will not tolerate it [piracy]" instead.

Well, 'nuff said I suppose.
  #15  
Old February 23rd, 2008, 03:24 PM
hunter hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal View Post
I'm going to go on a limb here and presume that Hunter meant that he will not tolerate piracy rather than debate on piracy
You are correct. Note that I do not agree with your position, but I have no problem with the discussion (unless of course it degrades into a flame war).
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  #16  
Old February 23rd, 2008, 09:22 PM
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I'm just stating a position here, based on my own very limited experience of the matter.

I have to say I largely agree with the view that the effects of piracy are somewhat over-dramatised (and I'm not just talking about those "evil video-pirates from hell" trailers you get at the end of your DVD). I personally know of no one person who has ever chosen a pirate version of anything instead of a real one. I know plenty of people who regularly buy large anounts of pirated entertainment (Look at my location), but those same people all shell out for the real thing if they think it's worth it. The idea that a publisher loses $20 because that person didn't buy his $20 copy is a fallacy, because they would never have bought it anyway. The only thing that pirated goods do is provide free publicity. That works both ways - if everyone knows a product is crap because of pirated copies, then that publiser will sell less genuine ones. But, and it's a big "but", word-of-mouth that something is worth buying is far better for sales than any number of marketing campaigns or "pirates fund terrorists" scare stories.

I have personally bought the majority of my DVDs based on recommendation or personal experience from pirated copies. Those bucks made by the publisher are down to the pirates, and the fact that the real thing is good enough to be worth getting. IMHO piracy sorts the wheat from the chaff.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter of piracy in general.

Now, pirating Traveller CDs - that's just damnable.
  #17  
Old February 23rd, 2008, 10:02 PM
sablewyvern sablewyvern is offline
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Since Hunter has green-lit general discussion, here's my 2c:

Pirates fall into one of three categories:

1. Those who would not buy the stuff they are pirating, even if it was not available for free.
2. Those who buy stuff because they are impressed with their pirate copies, and would not have purchased it otherwise.
3. Those who pirate solely because free is better than stuff that costs money, and who would pay for stuff if they couldn't get it for free.

I am certain that a large proportion of pirates fall into category 1. The economic effect of piracy then depends on whether or not the sales gained from category 2 outweigh those lost from category 3 (and despite impassioned claims to the contrary, only category three piracy can be equated to a lost sale).

Personally, I think it is most likely that piracy functions as advertising, and promotes sales in most circumstances (I know I've got a lot of TV series DVDs sitting on my shelf, for shows I would never have been properly exposed to without piracy).

Unfortunately, beyond knowing that an act of piracy does not map directly to a lost sale, we really don't know what the hard economic facts of piracy are. I base my conclusions on my own experiences, the success of some free online book programmes (which correlate to increased sales of dead-tree copies), similar results for some small bands, and the fact that music sales generally have been significantly and steadily increasing since the boom in P2P file sharing.
  #18  
Old February 23rd, 2008, 10:42 PM
Agemegos Agemegos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sablewyvern View Post
1. Those who would not buy the stuff they are pirating, even if it was not available for free.
2. Those who buy stuff because they are impressed with their pirate copies, and would not have purchased it otherwise.
3. Those who pirate solely because free is better than stuff that costs money, and who would pay for stuff if they couldn't get it for free.

I am certain that a large proportion of pirates fall into category 1. The economic effect of piracy then depends on whether or not the sales gained from category 2 outweigh those lost from category 3 (and despite impassioned claims to the contrary, only category three piracy can be equated to a lost sale).
That's all very well if you suppose that people are doomed from birth to be pirates or non-pirates. But in reality people change their behaviour according to t circumstances. If you smile indulgently at category 1 pirates you encourage category pirates to behave as category 3 pirates, and also encourage non-pirates to become pirates.
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Old February 23rd, 2008, 11:06 PM
sablewyvern sablewyvern is offline
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Quote:
That's all very well if you suppose that people are doomed from birth to be pirates or non-pirates. But in reality people change their behaviour according to t circumstances. If you smile indulgently at category 1 pirates you encourage category pirates to behave as category 3 pirates, and also encourage non-pirates to become pirates.
Do you? Maybe, maybe not. We're well and truly into the realm of supposition by this point -- neither of us know whether or not this is the case. My anecdotal evidence indicates you're wrong, but it is only that -- anecdotal.

We can say with certainly that idiotic (ie, all) DRM schemes serve only to create pirates and reduce sales -- since pirates aren't downloading DRM crippled versions in the first place, and plenty of people will be driven away by crippled products they're being asked to pay for.

Asking people to pay for your products, pointing out your need to earn income from your efforts, explaining that they only get product if you can afford to produce it: those are entirely reasonable. But the only effective way to combat piracy is to offer a superior, or at least convenient, alternative, and rely on people's desire to compensate you for your work. This is the reality of the market. IP holders can get angry and gnash their teeth all they want, but it isn't going to resolve the issue in their favour.

Fighting piracy by crippling PDFs with DRM, placing dangerou rootkits on CDs, refusing to install if a virtual CD is present, or forcing paying customers to watch hyperbolic diatribes equating copyright infringment to auto theft and bag snatching from old ladies is not the answer.

I know I'm not going to wait a year or more for a TV show to be broadcast over here and hope it will be aired at a convenient time. I watch my TV via bittorrent, and I buy plenty of DVDs as a result. If Australian TV networks want me as part of their audience (not that it matters if I am, since they don't gather any statisics on my TV-watching habits), they need to do something about their trash-TV to actually decent stuff ratio, and make watching at least as convenient as a minute of web browsing and a couple of mouse clicks.

And, to be completely clear, I have no issue whatsoever with Hunter's stance on piracy on CoTI.

Last edited by sablewyvern; February 23rd, 2008 at 11:13 PM..
  #20  
Old February 24th, 2008, 01:25 AM
Agemegos Agemegos is offline
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That's a false dichotomy. There is middle ground between treating piracy as free advertising and the extremes you listed as the alternative. Including, for instance, the policy that Hunter has adopted. The Traveller CD-ROMs are not crippleware, and Hunter's policy of forbidding the use of his site to promote piracy equates piracy with neither bag-snatching nor sniping at civilians.
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