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  #11  
Old September 17th, 2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
a mere crime syndicate would not have been able to militarily defeat and hold back an organized entity like the zhodani, or even the vargr. a crime syndicate can deploy a few bus-loads of enforcers, that's all, it could never field a navy or army. clearly the imperium is organized around some central premise with which at least the majority agrees and is willing to defend for centuries.
Don't take the analogy too literally - although consider the help the 'mafia' gave to the Allied invasion of Sicily and Italy. I'm talking about the initial establishment of the 3I - which was most definitely a protection racket and offers you can not refuse.

Made men became dukes able to rule their territory - subsector - with the authority of the Emperor (Don).

The mafia is very feudal in nature.

By the time the 3I reaches the Zhodani the 'feudal duty' smokescreen is well and truly in place - although that didn't stop a capo from going after the emperor
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  #12  
Old September 17th, 2019, 09:47 PM
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given the restriction of no Faster-than-Light communications, no large interstellar empire can function.
sure it could, using a federal structure - cental, regional, local. which seems to be what the imperium uses.

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At best, you might be able to tolerate a 3 months communication lag each way, but even that is pushing it in the event of a major crises on the border.
only with a centralized authortarian dictatorial central government. a decentralized government founded on a shared cultural meme easily could do it.
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Old September 17th, 2019, 09:51 PM
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I'm talking about the initial establishment of the 3I - which was most definitely a protection racket and ...
... grew beyond that. a mafia operates within a larger government and society, not as a government or society of its own.
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  #14  
Old September 17th, 2019, 10:42 PM
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What was the communication lag time of the British Empire?
Before or after steamships became common? Before or after the transoceanic cables were laid?

Admiral Nelson 1805 faced much greater communication lag, and so was on his own, than was Admiral Cradock (very-South America) 1914.
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Old September 17th, 2019, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
What was the communication lag time of the British Empire? Or the Mongol Empire for that matter.
At points, up to a year round trip for the BE,

Decentralization allows the 4 months to the frontier of the Roman and Mongol empires to be stable... within reason... but eventually, that decentralization cracked the Romans. The Mongols essentially abandoned their empire. Not once, but several times... at least twice in what is now China, and once in Europe.
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Old September 18th, 2019, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
sure it could, using a federal structure - cental, regional, local. which seems to be what the imperium uses.



only with a centralized authortarian dictatorial central government. a decentralized government founded on a shared cultural meme easily could do it.
You could argue that a Feudal government is automatically de-centralized, and Autheritarian.

Any system with a high degree of local autonomy could function. But even so, you have numerous examples in history that when communication and supply lines get really long, the system is very delicate when under stress of natural disaster, invasion or insurrection. And civil wars tend to drag out for a long time. Rome was gripped with civil war for 50 years in the 3rd century, for instance, ending with Diocletian which tried to create and "east and West" that were more or less independent entirely to try to avoid future conflict. Didn't work, but the Eastern part did survive for almost 1200 years after his reforms.
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Old September 18th, 2019, 07:48 PM
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I am not sure that the British Empire is a good example, as they did not really get going into overseas possessions like India and Australia until the mid to late 1700s. Then the East India Company basically took care of India, while Australia had a fairly large military contigent to keep the initial forced immigrants of convicts in line. When the British government actually took control of India after the Indian Mutiny of 1857, steamships were coming on along with telegraph cables. When the Suez Canal was completed in 1870, travel time to India and Australia dropped for the UK dropped drastically.

There really was not an extended time of slow communications for the British Empire.
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Old September 18th, 2019, 08:00 PM
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I've always thought 3I government more as a self-perpetuating oligarchy...

See that nogovernment is purein Traveller definitions, most having a mix-up of various ones.
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Old September 19th, 2019, 02:17 AM
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While reading a book on the Dutch seaborne empire (at one time the Dutch controlled the Cape of Good Hope, and until 1947, the archipelago that is now Indonesia), I started thinking that a better analogy for a sailing ship empire would be either the Spanish or the Dutch. The Spanish at one time controlled areas of North and South America, a number of islands in the Caribbean, along with a considerable area in Europe and the Philippines.
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Old September 19th, 2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
What was the communication lag time of the British Empire? Or the Mongol Empire for that matter.
For Imperial Emergency Urgent messages I would imagine 2 weeks to a month. The Mongols had a "Pony Express" system, as did land-based empires before them. The British Empire covered so many different Tech Levels that you have to consider the speed of sail through steam, cable, and radio communications.

Generally, multiple messengers would be dispatched for critical messages as natural disaster and deliberate interception were always a risk.
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