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Old January 4th, 2015, 06:06 AM
dilettante dilettante is offline
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Default Small Craft and the "one-per-fifty" rule in High Guard

I have a question about the Hull and Structure Table on page 57 of High Guard. From this table it would seem that a 40-ton ship has one Hull Point at ship scale. This breaks the otherwise consistent rule of "one Hull Point and one Structure Point per 50 tons of displacement [at TL 12]" on page 106 of the Core book. Not knowing why this exception exists makes it difficult to apply the Low- and High-Tech mods under the Primitive & Advanced Spacecraft options (High Guard, p.52).
Examples of my confusion:
  • At what TL below TL 12 will a 40-ton craft have no Hull Points?
  • How about a 50-ton craft?
  • At TL 16, will a 40-ton craft have two Hull Points?
My current opinion is to assert that spacecraft with a displacement tonnage of 40-tons or more have a minimum Hull Point value of one. This would mean that a 40-ton (and 50-ton) craft would have a Hull Point value of one regardless of how primitive their construction is, and that a 40-ton craft would have only one Hull Point at TL 16.
I would appreciate any thoughts on this subject, especially regarding why the exception to the "one-per-fifty" rule exists.
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Old January 4th, 2015, 08:57 AM
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See that while the standard assumption is 1 hull and 1 structure per 50 dtons, as always, partial hull/structure must be taken into account.

This means about 2 hits/50 dtons, and at 40 donts that would mean 1.6 hits, so I guess they round to the closest whole number, making those hits shared among hull and structure, giving any odd number to structure.

To see the effect of TL, I'd use the TL modifier to the tonnage to see at which range it is put, and look at the table given. So, at TL 8, when hull/structure hits are 1/90 (so, about 0.55), I'd use this modifier (55%) to the tonnage, making a 40 dton hull the equivalent to a 22 dton hull, so only 1 structure, while at TL 16, as it's 1 hull and 1 structure per 25 dton (so modifier is 200%), the effective tonnage would be 80 dtons, so giving it only 1/1 hull structure hits according to the table.

Another possibility would be to use it as multiplier to hits, (so, a TL 16 40 dton hull would have 3.2 hits, so, rounding to the closest, it will put it at 3 hits, 1 hull and 2 structure. The problema with this is that by the same reason, a 80 dton hull will have the same numbers, and the table puts it at 1/1 hull/structure hits...

So, I'd stick at applying the modifier to the tonnage, as I explained on the first option.
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Old January 4th, 2015, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
See that while the standard assumption is 1 hull and 1 structure per 50 dtons, as always, partial hull/structure must be taken into account.

This means about 2 hits/50 dtons, and at 40 donts that would mean 1.6 hits, so I guess they round to the closest whole number, making those hits shared among hull and structure, giving any odd number to structure.

To see the effect of TL, I'd use the TL modifier to the tonnage to see at which range it is put, and look at the table given. So, at TL 8, when hull/structure hits are 1/90 (so, about 0.55), I'd use this modifier (55%) to the tonnage, making a 40 dton hull the equivalent to a 22 dton hull, so only 1 structure, while at TL 16, as it's 1 hull and 1 structure per 25 dton (so modifier is 200%), the effective tonnage would be 80 dtons, so giving it only 1/1 hull structure hits according to the table.

Another possibility would be to use it as multiplier to hits, (so, a TL 16 40 dton hull would have 3.2 hits, so, rounding to the closest, it will put it at 3 hits, 1 hull and 2 structure. The problema with this is that by the same reason, a 80 dton hull will have the same numbers, and the table puts it at 1/1 hull/structure hits...

So, I'd stick at applying the modifier to the tonnage, as I explained on the first option.
Thank you for the thought you've put into this.
The problem with the 2 hits/50 dtons explanation is that it is inconsistent with the rest of the table. As you have already noted, an 80 ton ship would have 3.2 hits, yet the table puts it at 1/1 hull structure hits. A 90 ton ship has 3.6 hits, implying it has the same hull/structure as a 100 ton ship, but it doesn't. Its bad news for the 10 ton ship; at 0.4 hits it has no structure and is immediately destroyed!
Reasonably, ships have a minimum structure of 1 point. That is why I ventured the assertion that ships of 40 tons or more have a minimum hull of one point. It follows (at a distance) a minimum-value precedence already set. Why would this minimum be set? Perhaps to give the 40 ton Pinnance, which can mount up to two beam or pulse lasers, a fighting chance in a skirmish.
The 90 ton Antique Shuttle (TL 7) in High Guard (p.100) seems to support both of our theories, so no luck there! However, the 40 ton Slow Pinnace (TL8) in Traders and Gunboats (p.18) has 1/1 hull structure value instead of the 0/1 value you calculated for a 40 ton TL 8 craft in your first option. Using your second option, it would have ~0.89 hits, again a 0/1 hull structure. The minimum-rule for 40+ ton craft does seem to hold, though one data point is far from proof.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 02:07 PM
dilettante dilettante is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
The minimum-rule for 40+ ton craft does seem to hold, though one data point is far from proof.
And here's why you should never rely on only one data point.

The 100 ton TL 11 Heavy Modular Cutter Type 1C in Merchants and Cruisers (p.10) has a hull structure of 2/2. According to my method, it should only be 1/1. According to your first option, it should be the same as a 100 * 50 / 60 = 83 ton craft, 1/1. By your second option, it should have 2 * 100 / 60 ~= 3 hits, or 1/2.

to the both of us.

P.S. I've learned to space my paragraphs to make my rants easier to read.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 02:18 PM
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I wonder if the ships in those supplements are designed using the variable hits according to TL shown in HG or as bare CB shps...

As I don't own them, are those modifiers used in the larger (over 100 dtons) ships?
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Old January 5th, 2015, 08:52 PM
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I'll go through Traders and Gunboats, Fighting Ships, and Merchants and Cruisers as they are the ones I own. I'll list all ships with a design described at a tech level other than TL 12 and list their relevant statistics. Ships with the same statistics will be grouped together. I'll then calculate their hull points at TL 12 and at their listed tech level, rounding to one decimal place if needed. My post will be split into two as it is long.

TRADERS AND GUNBOATS

Antique In-System Hauler
Stats: 800 tons; TL 8; 16/16 hull/structure points
1 hull point per 90 tons: 800 / 90 = 8.9 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 800 / 50 = 16 hull points

Type X Express Boat (X-Boat)
Stats: 100 tons; TL 13; 2/2
1 hull point per 45 tons: 100 / 45 = 2.2 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 100 / 50 = 2 hull points

Type A3 Fast Trader
Animal-Class Safari Ship
Stats: 200 tons; TL 11; 4/4
1 hull point per 60 tons: 200 / 60 = 3.3 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 200 / 50 = 4 hull points

Saint-Class Sanatorium Hospice Boat
Stats: 300 tons; TL 11; 6/6
1 hull point per 60 tons: 300 / 60 = 5 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 300 / 50 = 6 hull points

Type XT Express Boat Tender
Destroyer Escort (Convoy Variant)
Destroyer Escort (Patrol Variant)
Stats: 1000 tons; TL 13; 20/20
1 hull point per 45 tons: 1000 / 45 = 22.2 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 1000 / 50 = 20 hull points

Armed Fast Smuggler
Q-Ship
Stats: 400 tons; TL 11; 8/8
1 hull point per 60 tons: 400 / 60 = 6.7 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 400 / 50 = 8 hull points

Light Assault Transport
Stats: 1600 tons; TL 14; 32/32
1 hull point per 40 tons: 1600 / 40 = 40 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 1600 / 50 = 32 hull points

Type M/R Minesweeper
Stats: 300 tons; TL 13; 6/6
1 hull point per 45 tons: 300 / 45 = 6.7 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 300 / 50 = 6 hull points

Type NA Naval Auxiliary
Stats: 600 tons; TL 11; 12/12
1 hull point per 60 tons: 600 / 60 = 10 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 600 / 50 = 12 hull points

Defense Frigate
Stats: 800 tons; TL 11; 16/16
1 hull point per 60 tons: 800 / 60 = 13.3 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 800 / 50 = 16 hull points

Advanced Systems Defense Boat (SDB II)
Stats: 200 tons; TL 15; 4/4
1 hull point per 35 tons: 200 / 35 = 5.7 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 200 / 50 = 4 hull points

Antique Systems Defense Boat
Stats: 300 tons; TL 9; 6/6
1 hull point per 80 tons: 300 / 80 = 3.8 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 300 / 50 = 6 hull points

Missile Systems Defender (MSD II)
Stats: 500 tons; TL 15; 10/10
1 hull point per 35 tons: 500 / 35 = 14.3 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 500 / 50 = 10 hull points

Escort Frigate
Stats: 600 tons; TL 13; 12/12
1 hull point per 45 tons: 600 / 45 = 13.3 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 600 / 50 = 12 hull points

Fiery-Class Gunned Escort
Stats: 400 tons; TL 14; 8/8
1 hull point per 40 tons: 400 / 40 = 10 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 400 / 50 = 8 hull points

Type ST Light Scout
Stats: 200 tons; TL 13; 4/4
1 hull point per 45 tons: 200 / 45 = 4.4 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 200 / 50 = 4 hull points

Missile Corvette
Stats: 400 tons; TL 13; 8/8
1 hull point per 45 tons: 400 / 45 = 8.9 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 400 / 50 = 8 hull points

Watchdog-Class Fleet Picket
Stats: 500 tons; TL 13; 10/10
1 hull point per 45 tons: 500 / 45 = 11.1 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons: 500 / 50 = 10 hull points

The above data gives the appearance that only the core book has been used and High Guard ignored. However, the fly in the ointment is the Colonial Cruiser. A 1,200 ton, TL 15 ship, the design sheet explicitly states that the hull is TL 14 and that it has a 30/30 hull structure. Working it out:

1 hull point per 35 tons (TL 15): 1200 / 35 = 34.3 hull points
1 hull point per 40 tons (TL 14): 1200 / 40 = 30 hull points
1 hull point per 50 tons (TL 12): 1200 / 50 = 24 hull points

It seems that only the Colonial Cruiser has a non-TL 12 hull (to which the High Guard modifiers have been made) while all other ships have a TL 12 hull -- including the Antique In-System Hauler (TL 8)! I'm baffled as to why.
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Old January 5th, 2015, 08:54 PM
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FIGHTING SHIPS

Ghalalk-Class Armoured Cruiser
Stats: 50 ktons; 4 sections; TL 14; 312/312
1 hull point per 40 tons: 50,000 / 40 / 4 = 312.5 hull points per section

Wind-Class Strike Carrier
Stats: 75 ktons; 4 sections; TL 13 hull; 417/417
1 hull point per 45 tons: 75,000 / 45 / 4 = 416.7 hull points per section

Kokirrak-Class Imperial Battle Dreadnought
Stats: 200 ktons; 5 sections; TL 14; 1,000/1,000
1 hull point per 40 tons: 200,000 / 40 / 5 = 1,000 hull points per section

Plankwell-Class Imperial Dreadnought
Stats: 200 ktons; 5 sections; TL 13; 889/889
1 hull point per 45 tons: 200,000 / 45 / 5 = 888.9 hull points per section

Tigress-Class Imperial War Dreadnought
Stats: 500 ktons; 5 sections; TL 14; 2,500/2,500
1 hull point per 40 tons: 500,000 / 40 / 5 = 2,500 hull points per section

In this book, all hulls have been built to the listed tech level and High Guard modifiers applied, except that rounding has been inconsistently applied. The Ghalalk is rounded down while the Wind and Plankwell round up! If frustration had an emoticon there would be a row of them right here.

MERCHANTS AND CRUISERS

This book follows Traders and Gunboats in that hulls are built to TL 12 unless explicitly stated otherwise in the design sheet. I only list those exceptions.

Dragon
Stats: 1,200 tons; TL 15; 34/34
1 hull point per 35 tons: 1,200 / 35 = 34.3 hull points

Ritchey Class Escort
Stats: 8,000 tons; TL 13; 3 sections; 59/59
1 hull point per 45 tons: 8,000 / 45 / 3 = 59.3 hull points per section

Antique Trader
Stats: 400 tons; TL 9; 5/5
1 hull point per 80 tons: 400 / 80 = 5 hull points

So far, so good, but it wouldn't be a Mongoose book if it didn't frustrate me in some way. An exception to the exception is that Darrian hulls ARE built to the tech level of the ship design even though the design sheet does not explicitly state this.

Behnin Dak Science Vessel
Stats: 500 tons; TL 13; 12/12
1 hull point per 45 tons: 500 / 45 = 11.1 hull points

Behnin Ru Science Vessel
Stats: 300 tons; TL 13; 7/7
1 hull point per 45 tons: 500 / 45 = 6.7 hull points

Notice how 11.1 has been rounded up to 12?

I give up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
The 100 ton TL 11 Heavy Modular Cutter Type 1C in Merchants and Cruisers (p.10) has a hull structure of 2/2. According to my method, it should only be 1/1. According to your first option, it should be the same as a 100 * 50 / 60 = 83 ton craft, 1/1. By your second option, it should have 2 * 100 / 60 ~= 3 hits, or 1/2.
Since Merchants and Cruisers is building all hulls at TL 12 unless explicitly stated (Darrians aside), then the Heavy Modular Cutter's hull structure is easily explained.
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Old January 6th, 2015, 04:12 AM
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So, no small craft seems to be uilt using TL modifiers...

See that its use, as I understand, is optional above TL 12 (if you want to pay more, you have better hull/structure resistence), but it's not optional below TL 12, as this is the better hull you may build (and the cost is unafected).

See also this (as now unansweresd, at least officially1) question I myself asked some time ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
TY to both.

Now some more questions (I'll post them on different posts to ease any quoting):

Can you armor a hull made on TL 9 materials (cheaper and less hull/structure) with bonded superdense (TL14)? Rules don't forbide that, but I understand for a ship to be armored with bonded superdense it must be built on it (so, TL 14+ materials), as armor is more than just platting over the hull (and because of it, it takes tonnage).
Off course, there is no reason to use TL 9 materials to build your ship if you can use TL 14 armor, as the cost from TL 9 to TL 12 is the same, but rules don't forbid it, and the problema will persist if you use TL 12 materilas to build your ship.

(BTW, I guess you'll find the whole thread quite interesting, judging by your questions.)

Note 1: I understand as oficial answer any one from MongooseMatt in MgT questions
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Old January 6th, 2015, 03:39 PM
dilettante dilettante is offline
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From page 15 of the errata:

Quote:
Page 52, Primitive and Advanced Spacecraft (omission): Every TL below 12 has a cumulative 5% reduction in the cost of a hull.
So a TL 9 hull costs 85% of an equivalent TL 12 hull and 68% of a TL 14 hull. Min-maxing small craft designers will probably use low-tech (cheap) hulls if they don't have to pay for it with lost hull structure points. The minimum hull point of one house rule suggestion does have this problem.

Your point about using high-tech armor on low-tech hulls is one I hadn't considered. Historically, the early ironclad warships had iron plates over a wooden hull so the idea isn't entirely without support.

If you're designing ships using only the core rulebook then you have to allow it. The CB only has TL 12 hulls, so if you couldn't add higher TL armor bonded superdense would be unusable.

Thank you for the thread link, too. I found it very interesting.

Last edited by dilettante; January 8th, 2015 at 08:39 PM.. Reason: Forgot to make my point.
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