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Old June 4th, 2019, 06:07 PM
CaptRet CaptRet is offline
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Default Man Portable Missiles and Rocket Launchers

Looking through the first version Core Rulebook and the Supply Catalog, I'm struck by the apparent absence of man-portable guided missiles (MPGM), both anti-tank and air defense (MPATGM, ManPAD respectively) and the man-portable rocket launcher/recoilless antitank rifle. These would be different from the rocket launchers (a crew-served tripod or vehicular-mounted weapon) and RAM Grenade Launcher that are in the Supply Catalog and are much lighter (they are man-portable !) than the missiles in that book.

These weapons have been ubiquitous since the 1960's (with the recoilless rifle having been largely replaced by the MPATGM in first and second tier militaries). The recoilless rifle (and panzerschrek, bazooka, etc.) fired HE, HEAP, and flechette rounds, and would be 75mm (light) to 90mm (medium) (the vehicular-mounted heavy weapon was 106mm in US inventories of the 1970's and 80's).
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Old June 5th, 2019, 04:12 AM
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Old June 5th, 2019, 04:52 AM
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Old June 5th, 2019, 06:05 AM
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We ARE talking MgT1E right?


The Core weapons are just more for adventurers and is very much like the original kit from LBB3 classically,


CSC 1E has an extensive rocket and missile section. In the early page 100s you get a thorough discussion of warhead effects and costs, then in pages 117-130 most of that is missiles/rockets, including man-portable and artillery level. Slap on the warhead you want onto the missile package and you're good to rock.


Not a lot of SAM coverage, you kind of have to use the guided rules which are spread around in the first section with the rules then extrapolate. But it's all there, and more then what most people got with LBB4 and waited until Striker to get explicit/build sequences.


Arguably CSC is missing a lot of air vehicle which is covered more in the various versions of the vehicle books. You have to put them together to get the whole SAM picture.
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Old June 5th, 2019, 06:33 PM
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Kilemall, the CSC didn't seem to address man-portable missiles - the specific section seems to address only the heavier types that would be either ground launched or mounted on a vehicle/aircraft (or from a tripod, in the case of rocket launchers). I do see that there are also rockets mentioned in the Core Rulebook, but in a fairly cursory manner.

A couple of examples: the modern Milan ATGM masses 16.4 kg, has a 115 mm HEAT warhead, range of 2,000 meters (3,000 in the latest extended range variant), and is wire guided.
The old Dragon of the 1970's (used into the 90's; still in inventory) massed almost 17 kg (missile plus reusable launcher), had a 140 mm shaped charge warhead, range of 1,500 meters, and is also wire guided.
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Old June 5th, 2019, 07:38 PM
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<Shrug> you must have a different CSC version then I have, pages 116-119 is nothing BUT light RPAT goodness. It's definitely short in the MANPAD department which is odd as hall the time you'll be dealing with air/rafts/Gcarriers, and again for guided missiles mounted on vehicles you'll end up building your own with guided and warhead components, but the personal stuff is there.
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Old June 11th, 2019, 12:35 PM
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Yes, we must have different versions of CSC. My pages 116 - 119 are energy pistols, energy rifles, and the first page of grenades. May have to go to Striker and build manpads from there. Query, do you know how the characteristics/values for missiles relate as between Striker and MGT ? I've read that penetration for gauss rifles is very different between the two systems.
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Old June 11th, 2019, 02:40 PM
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Here is the text from my Page 117 of the MgT Supplement 4: Central Supply Catalogue (2009) ...

Quote:
Launchers and Missiles

All weapons in this section require the Heavy Weapons (Launchers) skill to use properly, with the exception of rifle-mounted grenade launchers, which can also be used with Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) skill by military-trained individuals (use of the launcher is considered to be part of their training with the rifle). Grenades fi red from launchers (even under-barrel ones fitted to a rifle) are different to rifle and hand grenades.

Grenades of all types are rated as either hand or launched grenades and are roughly equivalent in performance. Launchers are rated in the same way as artillery weapons but have much shorter ranges. Launchers are ineffective beyond 1km or so.

Disposable Launcher, Light (TL 6): A lightweight, self-contained, non-reusable weapon that launches a small (60mm or so) rocket. Disposable Launchers are designed to fire HEAP warheads only and are rated as Extremely Light artillery weapons. They are also known as Light Antitank Weapons (LAW) or Light Anti-Armour Weapons (LAAW).

Reusable Launcher, Light (TL 6): A lightweight, reusable firing platform that launches a small (60mm or so) rocket. Reusable Launchers are designed to fire HEAP warheads only and are rated as Extremely Light artillery weapons.

Disposable Launcher, Medium (TL 7): A self-contained, nonreusable weapon that launches a fairly large (90mm or so) rocket. The Medium launcher is rated as a Very Light artillery weapon. Disposable Launchers are designed to fire HEAP warheads only. They are also known as Light Antitank Weapons (LAW) or Light Anti-Armour Weapons (LAAW).

Reusable Launcher, Medium (TL 7): A reusable firing platform weapon that launches a fairly large (90mm or so) rocket. The Medium launcher is rated as a Very Light artillery weapon. Reusable Launchers are designed to fire HEAP warheads only.

Disposable Launcher, Medium, Incendiary (TL 7): A self-contained, disposable weapon that launches a fairly large (90mm or so) rocket-propelled incendiary warhead. The Medium incendiary launcher is rated as a Very Light artillery weapon.
This is the first of three pages of descriptions of launchers running right up the TLs to TL 12 (Disposable Launcher, Plasma).
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Old June 11th, 2019, 04:59 PM
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Thank you ATPOLLARD !!
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Old June 11th, 2019, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRet View Post
Yes, we must have different versions of CSC. My pages 116 - 119 are energy pistols, energy rifles, and the first page of grenades. May have to go to Striker and build manpads from there. Query, do you know how the characteristics/values for missiles relate as between Striker and MGT ? I've read that penetration for gauss rifles is very different between the two systems.

Striker is just a little too particular to go and try to translate into any of these armor absorb die roll versions. I've got a dirty translate routine for MgT2E vehicles build process, but that's because I like it's quick build routine and am not afraid to handlay armor values and slap Striker weapons on them.

I'm thinking you must have the MgT2E CSC, do you have a publishing date there? If so and the Manpads are missing, that's a big overlook, killing grav vehicles has to be high on the merc's shopping list.

I'll give you the quick MgT1E versions.

The tactical missile which is what would be vehicle or ground mounted is listed in 3 flavors, anti-air, anti-armor and anti-personnel. Fire and forget hit on 8+ and on gunner skill for guided, light artillery weapons so I'm sure there is a range there, burst radii 14m for anti-personnel and 7m for the others, 9d6 damage with anti-armor being rated Super-AP (helps pen). Cost is 3Kcr/4Kcr/1.8Kcr, weight is 14/16/10kg.
There is a portable light tactical launcher associated with tac missiles, 15Kcr and 22kg. They are not clearly linked and it's a paragraph separate from the missiles themselves. I would presume weapon rails/bays/turrets otherwise.

Found a separate table, light arty is 12km, so that's your range.


The guided disposable launcher would be the more typical RPAT/MANPAD platform, it just lists 4x warhead cost without other stats. All sorts of modifiers defined for what you would want, I presume smart homing in all cases, fragmentation for light anti-grav/air or some version of the armor piercing ones depending on what you are hunting, but absolutely no base cost to the warheads themselves.

The whole thing introduces a penetrator AP/Super AP/Ultra AP on up penetration value, where the more powerful the warhead and the more penetratey it is the more armor is ignored THEN the die roll is applied. To be more precise 1D6 yields ignore 1 point of armor, 10D6 yields ignore 10 points of armor, then higher armor piercing presumably at higher TLs introduces multiples so x2 is ignore 2/20, x3 ignore 3/30, etc.

It's not bad, has a certain elegance showing even heavy older tech can do serious hurt and higher tech having hair-raising penetration if the armor isn't matching. I could live with it, but the 'roll your own warhead with a bazillion modifiers and no base cost' mess of a publication makes this comical and frustrating.

Gotta be an errata on this somewhere.


The guided part is simple enough, x10 for smart, x15 for brilliant (+2 DM), x20 for genius (+4 DM). So you could use the weapons and the table Pollard is alluding to, except none of these have frag warheads, more of what you would want for anti-air, not to mention range.

I can probably hotwire some MANPAD rules for you, if you like. The unguided rocket section has functional ammo costs, lighter rockets then the tactical and usable ranges.
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