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  #11  
Old May 24th, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
What I really posted to say was that I get confused when people refer to Classic Traveller combat as "old school", saying that you have to look up charts.

It aint' like that, folks.

Sure, there are charts. But, they're there for your convience. Just about every rpg has stats for weapons, yes?
I have no idea why "look up charts" are "old school" when many games both older and far newer than CT use charts.

... but, one really MUST either use the chart, memorize the chart or copy the data, in order to play the combat rules. The Weapon vs Range and Weapon vs Armor do not follow a simple progression that could allow one to reference the data during character creation and not need it during combat.

At the risk of showing my age, compare that to another 'Old School' concept like AD&D 1st ed THAC0. Traveller weapons could have been created with a system like Rifle needs a 4+ to hit an unarmed target at short range with a -1 per point of armor and -2 per 10 meters of range. THAT would have "not required the use of tables" (physical, memorized or selectively copied) during combat.

I am not saying that my example is better, I am merely pointing out a system that truely does not need the combat tables.
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  #12  
Old May 24th, 2009, 12:33 PM
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Becuase the size and scope of the charts in CT makes it hard to memorize them, whereas AD&D2, for example, attempts to rationalize the progressions so that you need not use tables in play, only during CGen.

MT does much the same thing: it attempts to reduce in-game table lookups.

CT has 17 data points per weapon (6 ranges, 7 armor types, damage, length, wt, ammo); MT has about 8 (Pen, Atten, Damage, Sig, Recoil, Length, Weight, ammo). Much more convenient to use.
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  #13  
Old May 24th, 2009, 12:42 PM
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I don't see much difference between copying weapons info down on your character sheet and holding a weapon info/stat card with similar info on it.

I think the 'old school' comment may be because CT seems to require every weapon to have a unique dm for every armor type which can give big table full of numbers, whereas 'new school' games like Striker/MTuse weapon 'power' vs armor 'resistance'.

Both abstract things and both do the job.
Each person has reasons why they like one system or the other.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 01:28 PM
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The line that stood out to me was:

"I love the Third Imperium to pieces, but, in the end, it helped kill Traveller."

The preceding two paragraphs are neccesary to make sense of this but in general, Traveller becoming so focused on the OTU limited the types of adventures it could be used for (not for everyone of course, but in the minds of a lot of people) and thus damaged the game.

THIS is why I support the Mongoose concept of the OTU being ONE of the settings for Traveller but not the only one nor even neccesarily the main one, although I do think there should continue to be support for it.

Allen
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Old May 24th, 2009, 02:40 PM
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I've used Striker since it came out because it made more "sense" to me to have weapon penetration vs. armor as a way to realistically portray combat. But...

I have now gone back to the original CT method (including the original dice values - you gotta love 3D6-8 Body Pistols..like BB guns), because I don't want that much "realism" anymore - I want adventure and daring-do in my games again. I want sword n' blasters escapades in my universe again.

Traveller used to be that way before all the extra rules buried it. I just last week re-read the original books and came away amazed at how much freedom I had lost in constraining myself to "new school" type rules, so I'm going back to the way I played it when I was a kid. Less rules, more fun.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allensh View Post
The line that stood out to me was:

"I love the Third Imperium to pieces, but, in the end, it helped kill Traveller."
I don't think that's true, but I'm convinced that even if it is, the OTU kept Traveller alive for a long time before end. (What end? As far as I can see, Traveler is still alive).

Quote:
Traveller becoming so focused on the OTU limited the types of adventures it could be used for (not for everyone of course, but in the minds of a lot of people) and thus damaged the game.
If that's true, it's very sad that a fallacy like that damaged the game. The only adventures that can't be run in the OTU are those that are strongly tied to another universe.


Hans
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  #17  
Old May 24th, 2009, 03:36 PM
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Sorry S4 but I have to take issue here.

The CT range and armour matrix is a pain in the behind.

Yes you can write down your commonly used weapons, but what happens when then they pick up a differnt one?

Or pity the poor ref who has to refer to the entire infernal table.

Did anyone ever use all the weapon vs armour types in AD&D? I certainly didn't - pain in the behind. Made more so by the fact that the monsters often didn't use armour but had a natural AC.

CT sufferes from this as well - you have to look up every critter or memorise the chart or have the chart available as a play aid.

T4 all the way for me - damage die and armour rating, much simpler.
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Last edited by mike wightman; May 25th, 2009 at 02:12 AM..
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Old May 24th, 2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Sorry S4 but I have to take issue here.

The CT range and armour matrix is a pain in the behind.

Yes you can write down your commonly used weapons, but what happens when then they pick up a differnt one?

Or pity the poor ref who has to refer to the entire infernal table.
Actually that very simple play aid I referred to can be printed out and made easily available.

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T4 all the way for me - damage die and armour rating, much simpler.
I like the T4 combat system, but there is definitely a different feel to it. The reason is that armor absorbtive systems like T4 (or MGT for that matter) tend to produce slow erosion of hit points, which can reduce drama. (It also isn't a particularly accurate way to model gun combat, but that's not a big deal for me. The loss of drama is). By contrast in CT, a single hit can be a game changer (especially with the "first hit applied to one stat" rule, which I endorse), since armor is an "all or nothing" proposition. (Which non-intuitively models real world armor/bullet interaction better, in my opinion).

My Combat System C was an attempt to retain the dramatic scope of the CT combat system, but ditch the cumbersome charts. Actually, the charts don't bother me; the difficulty of adding and calibrating new weapons is bigger issue for me.
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Old May 24th, 2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rancke View Post
I don't think that's true, but I'm convinced that even if it is, the OTU kept Traveller alive for a long time before end. (What end? As far as I can see, Traveler is still alive).

If that's true, it's very sad that a fallacy like that damaged the game. The only adventures that can't be run in the OTU are those that are strongly tied to another universe.
I don't agree that the 3I "damaged" Traveller. It just had a chilling effect on the kinds of game expansion material that was commerically available. For all practical purposes, the 3I killed any serious commercial expansion material that wasn't set in the 3I. There's no telling what other, possibly more compelling settings might have emerged. As a reverse example, imagine what gamers would have lost if AD&D had never grown beyond the World of Greyhawk. No Forgotten Realms. Maybe no Dragonlance. No Spelljammer. No Ravenloft. Etc., etc.

And I, for one, didn't really care for the 3I that much. especially after I became a history major and found other, more compelling analogues than the Roman Empire/Age of Sail situation. It is, of course, among the most detailed RPG settings ever. But it never really spoke to me. I also found the OTU aliens stunningly uninteresting or lamely derivative.

But the 3I didn't ruin Traveller for me; I took what I wanted from the 3I and ignored the rest.

A more systemic problem with Traveller, IMHO, is the jump drive. Given the relatively small number of destinations that can be reached with a jump drive, it seems to me that Traveller really doesn't allow for "exploring strange new worlds". Hence, I am toying with Really Big Hexes to enable some exploration type games.

Last edited by tbeard1999; May 24th, 2009 at 05:16 PM..
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