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  #21  
Old February 10th, 2008, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Able Baker View Post
Well, my suspicions with EDG are that I don´t think he´s up for the task.
He has a PhD in planetary science, he knows more about planetary formation that just about anybody else within the Traveller community. He tries to apply logic and reasoning to the corrections to be made. He has offered his time to do this without pay (from my underestanding) because he likes the Traveller game.

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Most of his reasoning wasn´t convincing, and he has shown several methodical shortcomings.

Like: not understanding statistics.
Could you give me a couple of examples of his reasoning that are not convincing and why you don't think they are? Could you give me three examples of these shortcomings and explain how they make the new UWP's so bad as to be worse than the pre-corrected UWP's?

I don't see how a lack of understanding of statistics to a collegiate degree level disqualifies him from making these corrections. I don't understand the basis for disagreeing with the need to change these "daft" UWP's using statistics. What in statistics makes it wrong to make these corrections?

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EDIT: Or even worse: not understanding UWPs.
What about UWP's does he not understand? It's an alphanumeric sequence that gives some of the most basic atributes of a world. Could you give me a couple of examples of his misunderstanding of UWP's that are worse than his corrections and provide a logical reason that explains why you say they are worse?
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  #22  
Old February 10th, 2008, 06:43 PM
Able Baker Able Baker is offline
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@ Randy: Some of your comments are already adressed by my second post.

He might have a Ph.D. in planetary science, whatever that is. So be it.

That only makes me wonder why he behaves as he does, and why he is posting hundreds of UWPs to "prove" anything. That´s not how it works.

I´m talking about the guy EDG from the Mongoose boards, just so that there is no misconception.

@Hunter: I´m not saying EDG is moronic, sorry. I do think it is "daft" as a principle to limit the options in the possible outcomes of a Referee´s tool, under the moniker of "realism".

Whereas other areas are left as they are. Like encounter tables.
Now are the realistic? Is the TU modelled good by them?

Now, if an overenthusiastic fan has shortcomings: no sweat, not anyones business. But if someone tries to make an impact on the game?

I have not seen him bring up his credentials, but if he was, that´d be a bad move too.
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  #23  
Old February 10th, 2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Able Baker View Post
@Hunter: I´m not saying EDG is moronic, sorry. I do think it is "daft" as a principle to limit the options in the possible outcomes of a Referee´s tool, under the moniker of "realism".
Understood, it's just a loaded term and easily taken in the wrong context over the internet. No worries, just try to avoid using such terms.

On EDG, yeah most of us know who you are referring to. He's not the most 'diplomatic' of people at times, but he does know his stuff when it comes to planetary science. I'll also say I've never seen him throw his doctorate around in an attempt to impress anyone.
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  #24  
Old February 10th, 2008, 06:52 PM
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CT UWP's suffer from a vast number of oddities as do a number of published UWP's from later versions of the Traveller line.

After all "First Survey" (T4 Supplement) is riddled with inaccuracies, and is canon OTU, but I would be suprised if anyone called for the UWP's contained within that book not to be changed of the sake of maintaining the "integrity" of the OTU.

New editions are a prime opportunity to rectify any mistakes/oddities that may have crept in.
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  #25  
Old February 10th, 2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin View Post
After all "First Survey" (T4 Supplement) is riddled with inaccuracies,
Feh, inaccuracies can be said for most products in the T4 line. It's the red-headed step-child of Traveller. Bringing up problems with it is like calling water wet.
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  #26  
Old February 10th, 2008, 06:59 PM
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I´d like to back it up with one example:

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Removed. Please do not copy Dr. Ganymede's posts from other forums. I'm not sure about his Mongoose sig, but he often has specified in his sigs that he does not want his posts copied without his permission, and you do not have it. If you want to reference his work please obtain his permission to copy it or just post a link to it. The link in this case is:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/ph...=475901#475901
This is very bad reasoning. I don´t want to go into the details, but here´s a simile: Where are most Americans living? In Kansas? Where the Wheat is?

Now, I´d just like to say that there´s a lot of factors of why and where and when people put their cities and installations. They are not even thought of in his "fixes".

I´m not a historian, but a historian would have his explanations, as would an economist or a sociologist or a demographer.

So, it´s just a patchwork of some ideas of some guy, who shows a very limited horizon in regards of how the TU should be modelled. His "fixes" are not more realistic, but are more limited.

Not anything I´d want for Traveller.
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  #27  
Old February 10th, 2008, 07:08 PM
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In looking over the actual thread on Avenger's side, most of the changes appear to be tweaks to the planetary size so that they can somewhat logically (won't use realistic ) support the atmosphere and/or hydrosphere. A few tech level, population and starport tweaks.

While I'm not overly fond of changing canon simply for realism, simply modifying a planet's size would seem to have little impact on the Marches per se: has anyone actually used the gravity rules for the smaller worlds? We never played the players bounding around in 10 foot leaps in short sleeves on the size 3 world w/breathable atmosphere (although now I might!). The atmosphere and hydrosphere componentsthey are maintaining except in extreme cases, were always more relevant to actual play.

The population, tech & starport changes will be more noticeable, but if I'm reading their intent correctly, they want to maintain the existing trade and other infrastructure systems, and are trying to minimize any changes.

And there has always been errata even in the Marches, changes from one version to another. Possibly even between printings of the same material. Heck - maybe the surveys were wrong (was that metric or English measurements for that last system?) (and later on, everyone was just too, well, embarrassed, to fix the data)(perhaps too much Douglas Adams or Terry Pritchart lately)

Finally - I also appreciate that this thread has no denigrated into something messy. I usually avoid adding to what can be confrontational threads, and this board usually manages to stay well above that despite having many contrary opinions. As per another thread - it is always interesting to hear other ideas, even if they do oppose my ideas (damn that Liberal Arts degree - makes me too wishy-washy!)
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  #28  
Old February 10th, 2008, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coliver988 View Post
In looking over the actual thread on Avenger's side, most of the changes appear to be tweaks to the planetary size so that they can somewhat logically (won't use realistic ) support the atmosphere and/or hydrosphere. A few tech level, population and starport tweaks.
Adjusting planetary size to better fit the atmosphere/hydrographics rating I can accept. That actually wouldn't break anything. Changing anything else could have significant impact.
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  #29  
Old February 11th, 2008, 01:28 AM
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Change away, I say...

I've still got my care-worn copy of Supplement 3!

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  #30  
Old February 11th, 2008, 01:59 AM
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As was mentioned in the poll on the same topic, EDG clearly knows what he is talking about when it comes to straightforward physical science. However, he also has a particular view on the cultural and sociological effects of different environments and the probabilities of any given planet being settled. While these are perfectly valid views, they are -- when you get down to it -- no more than speculation. "Planets with hostile atmsopheres will not have significant populations, except in extremely rare and unusual circumstances,"* is a purely speculative statement, but EDG regards it as objective truth.

*Edit to clarify: That's a paraphrased comment, not a direct quote of EDG.

Last edited by sablewyvern; February 11th, 2008 at 02:06 AM..
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