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Old February 10th, 2008, 01:49 PM
Able Baker Able Baker is offline
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Default Why do they change the Spinward Marches UWPs?

I don´t understand the reasoning behind this.

Especially as I´m very suspicious of "EDG"´s reasonings. He and MJD seem to concur that some UWPs are "daft".

Isn´t that the point of Traveller, to explain UWPs?

Also, why mess with the single sector that has so much canon tied to it?

I don´t see the need, I only see danger in these changes. Hopefully nobody will notice these changes, but who knows?
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Old February 10th, 2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Able Baker View Post
I don´t understand the reasoning behind this.

Especially as I´m very suspicious of "EDG"´s reasonings. He and MJD seem to concur that some UWPs are "daft".

Isn´t that the point of Traveller, to explain UWPs?

Also, why mess with the single sector that has so much canon tied to it?

I don´t see the need, I only see danger in these changes. Hopefully nobody will notice these changes, but who knows?
Why can't I find something about MGT I like? I don't want 'em messing around with the Marches, either. I think the Marches has been set in canon for decades. Messing with it, even if they are "daft", is just wrong.

I like the "daft" worlds, anyway. It makes them more "alien" and "foreign".

Besides, the real world isn't as nicely ordered and perfect as some UWP revisionists would like to think it is. The real world grows organicaly, and one can find some very strange things in nature and non-natural aspects of the world. The "daft" UWPs, as they say, actually make the world more "real" for me.

Remember "Don't Tread on Me!"

Well, I say, "Don't Mess with the Marches!"
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Old February 10th, 2008, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Able Baker View Post
I don´t understand the reasoning behind this.

...

Also, why mess with the single sector that has so much canon tied to it?

I don´t see the need, I only see danger in these changes. Hopefully nobody will notice these changes, but who knows?
Most of them prefer Traveller to look more like 2300AD. That is, they want it to look like reality. Explaining away worlds that can't hold onto an atmosphere is hard work, and gets old fast.

Nevertheless, I think that's not a good enough reason. People who know enough to understand and care about atmospheres are going to feel hamstrung by the UWP anyway, and really ought to get something like Heaven & Earth, or code their own world-building sector generators. The best will be adopted as de facto, and the rest will fall in line. But making changes for a percentage of a "fractured and dwindling fanbase" is the tail wagging the dog.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 02:29 PM
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I applaud the changes for sake of reality and it should have been fixed many times over already rather than perpetuating the impossible worlds idea.

It's one of the many little broken bits in Traveller. Everyone has their own personal issues (worlds, ships, economics, combat, TL, etc. etc.).

A new rule set is the only chance to fix them and the little I looked at EDG's work on it looked spot on. It maintains the simplicity of CT but discards the idiocy of the extremely impossible worlds.

Sure, making up fantastic stories for weird contradictory impossible UWPs is kinda fun and neat, the first dozen times, not so much so the next dozen times, and that's all in one sector typically.

Are you the same guys saying MGT is gonna kill Traveller by perpetuating the old myths about how backwards the game is? Well, impossible worlds is one of those big problems.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by far-trader View Post
I applaud the changes for sake of reality and it should have been fixed many times over already rather than perpetuating the impossible worlds idea.

It's one of the many little broken bits in Traveller. Everyone has their own personal issues (worlds, ships, economics, combat, TL, etc. etc.).
I've got no problems changing the system to generate more 'realistic' worlds, but I have a big problem with changing those worlds in the OTU.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hunter View Post
I've got no problems changing the system to generate more 'realistic' worlds, but I have a big problem with changing those worlds in the OTU.
But the point of doing the first is moot if you don't change the problems already created.

It'd be like creating the T20 ship design system and then saying "Oh, but all the previously created ships are already canon, even the B2 1st ed versions that don't need a powerplant for jump drives, so you can't fix those, and you can't use those old rules for new ships."

Granted it does change the OTU, though not in a significant way imo. And not in a bad way. It may require a small change in some old adventures, and I guess there's a whole whack of TML Landgrabs that will need to be redone (if they are still around anywhere).

Anyway, I'm sure Marc is none too happy either. With either the change to the world generation rules or the UWPs of some worlds.

Not that said worlds were rolled by the rules anyway...
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Old February 10th, 2008, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by far-trader View Post
But the point of doing the first is moot if you don't change the problems already created.
No it's useful for Referee's creating their own sectors. It doesn't have to be retroactively applied to the OTU.

Not to mention they would now have to go through and restat every world in every sector ever published.

Quote:
It'd be like creating the T20 ship design system and then saying "Oh, but all the previously created ships are already canon, even the B2 1st ed versions that don't need a powerplant for jump drives, so you can't fix those, and you can't use those old rules for new ships."
What you mean like Bk2 vs Bk5 ships?

Quote:
Granted it does change the OTU, though not in a significant way imo. And not in a bad way. It may require a small change in some old adventures, and I guess there's a whole whack of TML Landgrabs that will need to be redone (if they are still around anywhere).
Depends on the degree of change. If it starts changing worlds that are already detailed in canon it could have significant impact.

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Anyway, I'm sure Marc is none too happy either. With either the change to the world generation rules or the UWPs of some worlds.
I have no idea on that.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 03:46 PM
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If MJD is re-doing UWP gen, and he's helping MGT, and Marc is allowed to use the system in T5 (I recall something about EDG forbidding Marc from using his stuff before), then something may happen.

If any of those is not true, then nothing will happen.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Able Baker View Post
I don´t understand the reasoning behind this.

Especially as I´m very suspicious of "EDG"´s reasonings.
What do you suspect his reasons are? Is he trying to 'take over' Traveller? Do you think he has sinister motives to destroy Traveller?

Quote:
He and MJD seem to concur that some UWPs are "daft".
"Daft" in that they are physically impossible to exist such as very small worlds (size3 or less) that have breathable atmospheres (4-9) and/or water retention (hydro 1+).

Quote:
Isn´t that the point of Traveller, to explain UWPs?
Yep, that's why I bought the game, to explain the UWP's, yessir! There I was in the game store and I said to myself, "Randy, you need to find a game where you have to routinely try your best to explain nonsensical worlds to your players." Then I saw the Traveller box and bought it and boy o' boy was I lucky to pick the one game in the entire store that let me do that. And when the Spinward Marches supplement came out I had to clean my shorts I was so excited to have an entire sector with numerous examples of UWP's to explain.

Quote:
Also, why mess with the single sector that has so much canon tied to it?
Yeah, when I bought my copy of Supplement 3 it weighed a couple hundred pounds. I had no idea stone weighed so much but I didn't care because it was written by the Traveller god himself, Marc.

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I don´t see the need, I only see danger in these changes. Hopefully nobody will notice these changes, but who knows?
If they make the changes they want to make then all of the adventures and double adventures become useless. The JTAS and it's histories - out the window! I mean why change the computer rules or the starship construction rules or the combat rules? Why even have a new ruleset, why have Mongoose Traveller, why have T5? Look, it's not Traveller unless it has "daft", nonsensical worlds for me to explain, that IS the definition of Traveller isn't it? I mean EDG and MJD are trying to take over Traveller, maybe even destroy it, right?

I just don't understand this 'chicken little - the sky is falling' attitude that some Traveller canonistas have when a few common sense changes to the game are presented and/or are made. It reminds me of the sterotypical immature little boy who runs home with his toys when he doesn't win.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 04:41 PM
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I've got no problems changing the system to generate more 'realistic' worlds, but I have a big problem with changing those worlds in the OTU.
Yep. Exactly.
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