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  #1  
Old February 1st, 2006, 08:34 PM
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(T5 is being play-tested, and this is meant as constructive criticism.)

(T5 designers--you want to hear what people think? This is what I'm thinking...and I want to like this game sooooo bad.)


My biggest complaint about T5 can be described using an example--


You're in a MT game. Things are hot and heavy. It's a desperate situation. Your character may die. Combat. Drama.

----> You roll to-hit, flinging your dice out there in the middle of the
table. <----


And, then you look at the GM. Worried. Tension. "Did I hit, ref? What happened? TELL ME!"

Then the GM goes on to describe what happened.

THIS IS DRAMA, MAN! That's the fun of it. A good GM is a good narrator--a good story teller.

That's the type of game you find yourself remembering 10 years down the road.


Now, compare that with a T5 game. Things are tight. Rough. Lots of combat. And, your character still may die.

But...

----> You roll to-hit....and you freakin' immediately know whether you hit
or not. <----


Most of the drama is gone.

You're not as into listening to what the GM describes (because a good GM, under the MT system, won't tell players whether they hit or not--he'll just describe what happened) because you already know the outcome.

You've already read that book.

You know the ending.


======================
Summary
======================
You see, with T5, you're robbing the game of its drama. You're taking away one of the GM's tools to make it a worthwhile game.

The only way I can see around this is to have the GM make all the task rolls. But, (1) that's a lot of crap the GM shouldn't have to deal
with--he's got enough to do. And (2) Players like rolling their own dice (I know too many of them who have their own personal "lucky dice").


The T5 game designers really need to pay attention to this criticism. I know I'm not the first to voice it. And, what's going to happens is that people will buy T5, play it, and it will be "OK", instead of "GREAT"....and they won't know why. They'll just know the game session wasn't as cool as what they used to play.


C'mon, T5 designers. Fix this sucker before it hits the masses. Don't turn out an OK game when you have the ability to give us an INCREDIBLE game.

I vote that you do everything you can to make T5 the most bad-assed game that ever existed.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 12:23 AM
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Perhaps you would care to illuminate me on where it was you saw the current T5 task system?

The one posted over on www.traveller5.com is years out of date.
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  #3  
Old February 2nd, 2006, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Perhaps you would care to illuminate me on where it was you saw the current T5 task system?

The one posted over on www.traveller5.com is years out of date.
I saw the years out of date one. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt that it's changed a whole lot from that one.

If you know something different, then clue me in.

I'd love to be wrong about what I said above.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 08:26 AM
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No, I was hoping you knew.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
No, I was hoping you knew.
No, sorry, I haven't seen the latest. But, I'd bet money that the system isn't too far off from what you see on the T5 site. It will be some sort of add stat + skill then roll lower on a number of dice.

God, I hope they change this--the GM needs the opportunity to hide difficulty from his players when necessary.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 05:26 PM
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Robject has indicated that the massed hatred has caused MWM to reconsider the T4.1 task system from inclusion in T5. No replacement has yet been seen.

The points I made were basically on the same line.

As a GM, I want players rolling the same thing EVERY TIME; the T4.x task system fails this. Heck, SW-D6 and WoD fail this, but at least they put the number of dice rolled at the fingertips and outside the difficulty numbers.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
Robject has indicated that the massed hatred has caused MWM to reconsider the T4.1 task system from inclusion in T5. No replacement has yet been seen.

The points I made were basically on the same line.
I knew I wasn't the only one feeling this way.

Thanks for posting the info--I like to hear that MWM is aware of the situation.

Quote:
As a GM, I want players rolling the same thing EVERY TIME; the T4.x task system fails this. Heck, SW-D6 and WoD fail this, but at least they put the number of dice rolled at the fingertips and outside the difficulty numbers.
I actually really like the Star Wars D6 system (albeit, it's not Traveller). I think it's one of the best I've ever seen.

A player rolls his task, knowing his difficulty (we used the random difficulty option). Then, the GM rolls the difficulty roll.

This back-and-forth dicing...We had some bad-ass games using this method.

But, it's definitley not Traveller, and I wouldn't advocate its use with Traveller.

Like you, Traveller needs to be some sort of 2D6 system--maybe something like CTI or a version of the DGP/MT task system.

Heck, even unmodified DGP/MT would be better than T4.1.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 07:25 PM
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As far as I can tell -- and I haven't been told, and I haven't seen stuff newer than last summer's go-round -- Marc is still on track with a modified version of T4's task system, with some research into a 2d6 adaptation.

Apparently, this is not an arbitrary decision. As you might remember, the task system and how it integrates with the things he wants Traveller to be able to do has been on his mind for ten years. At least.

Apparently, 2d6 might or might not be powerful or expressive enough for T5. Apparently, a simplification of the T4 system packs more oomf in it than the older systems, and probably for many reasons and uses.

I'm assuming Marc will post the task playtest when it's ready, and maybe we'll be able to see why he is offering it as a useful task system, and why its existence is justified. Then you can explain -- calmly -- why it isn't desireable.

Until then, our speculations tend to be vaporous and futile. FUD.

And for the record, it wasn't any mass uprising from the populace that moved Marc to look into using a 2d6 adaptation. It was Hunter's polite suggestion.

So if you're the fuming and spewing type, save your venom for when you've got something to complain about. We didn't know what to complain about regarding alien race generation until we had the beastie in our hands. Likewise Small Craft gen. Addendum: And both have benefitted from our playtest input.

Valid playtest will require that you try to curb your knee-jerk reactions and calm your T4 Trauma.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by robject:
Then you can explain -- calmly -- why it isn't desireable.
I'm up for that.

I tend to vote with my pocket book anyway. I've got enought CT stuff to last me until I die. If I don't like T5, I just won't buy it--like I haven't bought T20 or GT.

Quote:
Valid playtest will require that you try to curb your knee-jerk reactions and calm your T4 Trauma.
Sound advice.

Count me in.
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Old February 2nd, 2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
Then you can explain -- calmly -- why it isn't desireable.
I'm up for that.

I tend to vote with my pocket book anyway. I've got enought CT stuff to last me until I die. If I don't like T5, I just won't buy it--like I haven't bought T20 or GT.

</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. Forgive my rant.

In the end, we vote on these things in cash.

It's nice to have some input before the print run, and the tension to balance requirements for the sake of improvement and appeal is high.
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