Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > The Lone Star

The Lone Star Meet, greet and socialize with your fellow Travellers in the Lone Star Lounge. Random Topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 28th, 2003, 11:11 AM
Mythmere Mythmere is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sugar Land, Texas
Posts: 502
Gallery : 0
Mythmere Citizen
Post

My copy of MT got sold accidentally with a box of old books. What were Strephon's proposed reforms? I'm working on the question of whether the rebellion would have occurred (ala Foundation psychohistorical inevitability) even if Strephon had not been assassinated. On a side note, do you think major historical trends can be avoided (ie was Strephon's assassination the product of historical forces, or was it an aberrant event that drastically changed history)? Obviously, SJG has an opinion on this, as they have published the alternate timeline. What do you think? But first remind me what the reforms were, because I need to know.
__________________
My website is <a href=\"http://mythmere.tripod.com/gothicnebula/index.html\" target=\"_blank\">Gothic Nebula</a>. \"The future is a time of dark secrets and vast ambitions.\"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old June 2nd, 2003, 01:33 AM
Mythmere Mythmere is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sugar Land, Texas
Posts: 502
Gallery : 0
Mythmere Citizen
Post

C'mon, somebody knows this.
__________________
My website is <a href=\"http://mythmere.tripod.com/gothicnebula/index.html\" target=\"_blank\">Gothic Nebula</a>. \"The future is a time of dark secrets and vast ambitions.\"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old June 2nd, 2003, 01:13 PM
Ranger's Avatar
Ranger Ranger is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL/Zagreb,Croatia
Posts: 480
Gallery : 0
Ranger Citizen
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Mythmere:
My copy of MT got sold accidentally with a box of old books. What were Strephon's proposed reforms?
Well, to be honest, I have been waiting for someone else to answer myself, since off the top of my head I can't come up with any specifics, and a have a fairly large amount of canon, including a bunch of MT stuff. The impression I have is that they were never detailed. The Idea behind Dullinor's motivations is that he felt the reforms would be insufficent, and his plan of doing away with the dual sovreignty system was the only way to save the Imperium.

If you want to see what a good set of reforms would have been, take a look at the Wounded Colosus time line. It has a whole chapter dedicated to how to reform the Imperium.

Quote:
I'm working on the question of whether the rebellion would have occurred (ala Foundation psychohistorical inevitability) even if Strephon had not been assassinated. On a side note, do you think major historical trends can be avoided (ie was Strephon's assassination the product of historical forces, or was it an aberrant event that drastically changed history)? Obviously, SJG has an opinion on this, as they have published the alternate timeline. What do you think? But first remind me what the reforms were, because I need to know.
Well, my take is that it is a little bit of both. Taking the French Revolution as an example, you have a situation in which France would have gone through some form of significant structural change, but the way that change unfolded was very much driven by the individuals who were driving events and specific choices they made at the time.

My view is that based on what was going on in the 3I that regionalism would have become a significant danger to Imperial unity. Some form of reform of the system or dramatic advance in technology would have been required to avoid a crisis, but the Dullinor reforms would have been a disaster, and would have collapsed the system just as effectivly as the Rebellion time line did.

Just my thoughts,

Rob
__________________
Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the law commands.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old June 3rd, 2003, 10:09 AM
kafka47's Avatar
kafka47 kafka47 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: For the most part : Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,379
Gallery : 28
Visit kafka47's Blog
kafka47 Citizen
Post

Reforms
Stephon granted more power to the Domains. Tightened the hold of the Nobility over the Armed Forces. Introduced J-6 couriers to convey information from the Core and back. And, was thinking about introducing more Democracy and more forms of home rule.

Comment:
I think indeed, we would have seen a situation like the French Revolution with Dulinor. But, it would be the Secret societies in the Imperium would act as the Thermidor. As the rot had largely set in and nothing could prevent the disintegration of the Imperium. Some regions could escape the harshness of the change but others would fall apart. As the centre was no present.

While I do like playing in the CT/GT universe, I prefer a more dynamic mix whereby the politics is exposed. I guess that I will have to wait for GT Nobles to see what SJG has in store...
__________________
As long as there are stars in the sky and dreams about the universe, as long as there are chronicles of high adventure to recount, there will always be Traveller.

Check out the calendar for active Toronto Traveller games: http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Area-Gamers/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old June 3rd, 2003, 11:08 AM
Mythmere Mythmere is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sugar Land, Texas
Posts: 502
Gallery : 0
Mythmere Citizen
Post

Quote:
I think indeed, we would have seen a situation like the French Revolution with Dulinor. But, it would be the Secret societies in the Imperium would act as the Thermidor. As the rot had largely set in and nothing could prevent the disintegration of the Imperium. Some regions could escape the harshness of the change but others would fall apart. As the centre was no present.
You and I think alike - that's why I wanted to see what the reforms looked like.

Carl Gustavson says the steps of a revolution are:
1 - "activity of writers in denouncing existent conditions...These men provide new goals for humanity..."
2 - "widespread public dissatisfaction manifests itself in riots, assassinations, and other acts of violence. The ruling group is intimidated into making repeated concessions until a real transfer of power occurs - the third stage."
3 - "By peaceful means, the reformers try to carry out their ideas. If the measures are of so drastic a nature as to split the nation,, the ability of the moderates to maintain control is lost, and the initiative now passes to the extremists."
4 - "the former ruling group, now out of power, and experiencing the disabilities of this position, attempts to regain control of the machinery of government: civil war follows. THe struggle entrenches the radicals in power, and in the fifth stage, they attempt to bring into realization their utopian dreams."
THe sixth stage is described as "the drift to normalcy, which is called the 'Thermidorean Reaction' in the French Revolution."

He also says, which is relevant, "The virtual collapse of an old regime permits peaceful accession to power of the reformers. Those who usually start the civil war are the former ruling classes, who have been deprived of more than they expected, and who now realize what loss of power really means."

Quotes from: Gustavson, A Preface to History, McGraw Hill, 1955.

Rather than a rebellion, the "Rebellion" might be better seen as the fall of an empire, with the best example being the USSR. Here is another quote:
"When we turn to the next more-profound level of causation, we confront factors that, although not immune to manipulation, were more difficult to cope with because they were either embedded in the system or lay outside the rulers’ control. Resolving them, where possible, could only have been accomplished by tampering with the system, which carried obvious risks. Among these, three stand out: economic stagnation, the aspirations of the national minorities, and intellectual dissent." my source here is from the web: source - Stanford?

This sounds more like the genesis of the Traveller rebellion. Indeed, more from that site:
"The instant the politicians of the non-Russian republics sensed the center wobbling, they began to clamor for national rights. Georgia, Lithuania, and Estonia declared their independence in March 1991; Latvia, in May; Russia, Uzbekistan, and Moldova, in June. Ukraine, the largest and most populous of the non-Russian republics, and Belorussia declared themselves sovereign states in July 1991, a decision that was ratified on December 1 by more than 90 percent of Ukraine’s population. In a desperate attempt to preserve the union, Gorbachev drafted a new constitutional charter that would have maintained the substance of the old imperial arrangement while making some formal concessions to the subject nations, but he was overtaken by events."

This casts Strephon in a new light, certainly, and permits interpolation of several news feeds and events for quite a while prior to the actual beginning of the rebellion.
__________________
My website is <a href=\"http://mythmere.tripod.com/gothicnebula/index.html\" target=\"_blank\">Gothic Nebula</a>. \"The future is a time of dark secrets and vast ambitions.\"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 4th, 2003, 09:49 AM
kafka47's Avatar
kafka47 kafka47 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: For the most part : Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,379
Gallery : 28
Visit kafka47's Blog
kafka47 Citizen
Post

You also ought to read Charles Tilly's book on Revolutions. WHich talks about social change, in terms of groups of individuals behaving in a certain way to obtain advantage. These block slide against one another to eventually create the dynamic we call history. So that history is not so much a struggle but a compromise between contending classes. These groups behave in a dynamic similar to a lava lamp, oszing up and combining with the ruling group causing downward pressure on some and upward pressure from below creating dynamics that related to previous historical bargins and new conditions wrought by politics, economics and culture.

The Imperium is such a case, as it has reached the natural limits of expansion, war has not really effected its borders so it turns inward. The Reforms proposed by Stephon come too little and too late. As Trotsky said the Revolution tends to carve up the middle ground where just everyone seems to want to stand.
__________________
As long as there are stars in the sky and dreams about the universe, as long as there are chronicles of high adventure to recount, there will always be Traveller.

Check out the calendar for active Toronto Traveller games: http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Area-Gamers/
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old June 4th, 2003, 10:37 AM
Mythmere Mythmere is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sugar Land, Texas
Posts: 502
Gallery : 0
Mythmere Citizen
Post

Thanks. Kafka47. I'm not familiar with Tilly's book, but I will look for it in the library (though without heading to a University library, scholarly works aren't easy to find here in the suburbs).

I think based on what I've read here, if the reforms proposed increased self-rule for the provinces and increased military power to the nobles, I can see the shape of the rebellion as it would have been brewing in 1115 to 1117. As rumors of the proposed reforms (and their rough drafts) leak out, the democratic reformers will be enraged that the Imperium plans to remain a feudal system. The "home rule" reformers will be enraged that home rule is being gutted by keeping military power out of the hands of local or regional congresses. Nobles will be horrified that Strephon plans to "steal" most functions of government from the nobility and hand them over to the planets. No one is ever happy with a compromise (good point, Kafka47 and Trotsky).

Ominously, lots of the Imperial Naval officers are nobles who expected comfortable knightly fiefs upon retirement and influential governmental posts.

Ominously, many colonial fleets are more loyal to the subsector duke than to the Imperium.

The list of "ominouslies" goes on and on.
__________________
My website is <a href=\"http://mythmere.tripod.com/gothicnebula/index.html\" target=\"_blank\">Gothic Nebula</a>. \"The future is a time of dark secrets and vast ambitions.\"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old June 4th, 2003, 11:15 AM
rancke's Avatar
rancke rancke is offline
Absent Friend
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 12,238
Gallery : 11
rancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizen
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by kafka47:
Reforms
Stephon granted more power to the Domains. Tightened the hold of the Nobility over the Armed Forces. Introduced J-6 couriers to convey information from the Core and back. And, was thinking about introducing more Democracy and more forms of home rule.
If this is from a canon source, I'd be most grateful for a quote. (I'm not being snarky, I really want that information ).


Hans
__________________
[I]"It also has to make sense."[/I]
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old June 4th, 2003, 12:33 PM
Jame's Avatar
Jame Jame is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Generally, Damascaa Towns
Posts: 7,767
Gallery : 0
Jame Citizen
Post

Come to think of it, this was sort of hinted at in the G:T book. For anything else, I'd go with Kafka47.
__________________
Member #5, Bring Back T5 in LBBs.

"Unfortunately, the Publishers regret that they can enter into no correspondence on this matter. If the Publishers are involved in any correspondence, they shall trace and revoke your mail priveleges."

Baron Damaascaa Towns, Kiikigulii, 1735 Sakhag/Antares
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old June 4th, 2003, 12:40 PM
kafka47's Avatar
kafka47 kafka47 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: For the most part : Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,379
Gallery : 28
Visit kafka47's Blog
kafka47 Citizen
Post

Hans,

The above mentioned reforms are extrapolations from various CT, TNE, MT source. We know about the couriers because of the message about the assassination and the blurb in fighting ships, I believe. Introducing more democracy was the prime fight with the Ing Giver and something that Norris accounted for in the Regency Sourcebook. Giving more control of the armed forces by the Nobility is directly a result of FFW, where Norris was given a warrant and free licence after the war to sack Admiral Sanch. and the fact the nobles are very much aligned with Sector Admirals in MT.

I am pretty sure that GT as a variant has not strayed to far from the GDW line. So if its there chances are it was repeated or thought of that way in the original GDW line.
__________________
As long as there are stars in the sky and dreams about the universe, as long as there are chronicles of high adventure to recount, there will always be Traveller.

Check out the calendar for active Toronto Traveller games: http://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Area-Gamers/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.