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  #11  
Old August 30th, 2007, 06:49 PM
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Several space operatic games lacked design rules for ships in the core.

Spacemaster 2nd edition
Star Wars d6
Star Wars d20
Star Frontiers
Star Riders (TFOS seqel)
Tales from the Floating Vagabond.
Traveller: THe New Era
Traveller: 2300
Battletech/Mechwarrior/Battlespace
Renegade Legion

In the case of RL, BT/MW/BS, TNE, T:2300, SpaM II and Star Frontiers, the ship design systems were separate boxed games; RL had two boxed games for spacecraft (Interceptor and Leviathon)

Star Wars already has a plethora of statted out ships for either edition, and no design system would likely match up and still be playable.

Star Riders simply states to make it up.
TFOS avoids the whole ship issue by dimension hopping.
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  #12  
Old August 31st, 2007, 04:34 AM
Tobias Tobias is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
In the case of RL, BT/MW/BS, [...], the ship design systems were separate boxed games;
It is much more precise to say that the roleplaying systems were separate books. Playing them without the preceding boardgames (which included construction rules) is pointless. Of course for MW, spaceships were much less important than, uh, 'Mechs. MW 1st edition is indeed an extreme example of an RPG that needed the vehicle design and combat rules to work. Without BattleTech, you simply didn't have a complete game (and actually, without CityTech and AeroTech as well, you were still lacking a lot of stuff.)
2300AD and TNE are prime examples of how annoying a crippled approach to ships in the core rules is. Either leave ships and ship combat out entirely or include them entirely.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 12:57 PM
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Quite agreed, Tobias, about 2300 and MW. Actually, MW 2e was playable without mechs, as they provided enough information about the setting to do non-mech stuff and generate non-mech-focused characters. (I don't have MW 3e to compare to.)

Not so about Renegade Legion. Since RL had enough common vehicles in the core, and rules for using them, that it was playable without the boxed games.

With Spacemaster II, the lack of ships in the core was a point that rendered the core to be "all three boxed sets" (SPacemaster, Armored Assault, and Star Strike) rather than the Spacemaster box alone. (SpaM I had robot, vehicle and ship design in Tech Law...)

When I first ran 2300, I avoided ships other than as plot devices. There simply were no adventurer class ships in the book, no way to make them, and thus, no point in ship-based characters. Then I used HG, playing in the 3I, with Jdrives. (I find 2300 a better system than CT overall.)
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  #14  
Old October 8th, 2007, 01:33 PM
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Well, I more or less disagree with the seeming majority here.

While it's nice to have a ship design system, that more necessary for a ref to custom tailor his/her own setting, based on the rules, which then become a generic bridge between the Official Game Universe, and whatever the Ref's Universe / Variant is.

If there are lots of ships, and an established Canon, you don't need a ship design system, because you can always fudge it close enough from what is / has been established for Most roleplaying and combat situations.

The fact that most Traveller players like to be able to calculate profit and loss with a spreadsheet for their latest Free Trader run does not make it true, nor necessary for most gamers / referees out there.

If I'm running a Star trek, or Star wars game, I'm not worried about the cost of the ships, and how much a 3 LY range radio transciever costs, more the action of the big battles between empires.

Certainly, that's a factor in any sort of "War" but the front line captains are not worried about it when the bad guys are launching torpedoes in their face.

Something like Traveller needs ship designs and has them, comma, High guard conflicts with Stiker, conflicts with The Traveller Book, left and freaking right. Toss in Wildstar's offerrings, and it's just like I want to say Damn, it can jump, it can carry 40 tons of cargo, and has two guns, and can take 12 hits, and LEAVE IT.

That's all players are really typically worried about in my experience. Really.

Kind of like Armor Class, Hit Points, To Hit, and Damage. That and a few dice, and you are ready to go, in a fantasy combat.

Simple, modular systems, fast play, and get on with the story.

And I didn't personally think that WEGs ship mod system was lacking, it seemed to me to be "Solo and Chewie tweaking it to the max, and paying or 'aquiring it by other means' accordingly."

But overall I agree with, A suitably generic sfrpg system should have Characters, Places, and Tools/Tech, just BECAUSE the intent is to allow you to build your own.

A specific setting doesn't need it.
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  #15  
Old October 8th, 2007, 03:37 PM
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To me, Traveller is, by definition, a tale in 3 parts. Character Creation, Ship Design and World Building/Economic Simulation. To "BE" Traveller, it must have those three elements in the core rules, whether its a single book, or broken down into a 2 or 3 volume set. I will admit though, the thought of shipbuilding tables and rules for ship and world design after a pass through the world famous 'Mongoose Publishing Quality Control Filter' sends a cold tendril of dread up my spine.

I almost think that we'd be lucky if this whole deal were to just lie stillborn on the table.

YMMV,
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  #16  
Old October 8th, 2007, 07:50 PM
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Two questions:

1) What did Mongoose do for its B5 products?

2) Did it learn any lessons about what it did wrong in those products?
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  #17  
Old October 9th, 2007, 12:36 AM
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To be fair to Renegade Legion and Battletech, in both cases the RPG was the *last* thing released.

Traveller with just example stats (ala TNE) can work, but since a big chunk of the ship rules need to be in the same book so the example designs *make sense*, and you'd better have written most of the design rules already just to have those examples, including the construction rules is not a huge burden. Particularly if those rules are simplified. Do a page count on CT Book 2's actual construction section sometime...
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