Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > 2300/2320AD > 2300AD & 2320

2300AD & 2320 Discussion of the original 2300AD from GDW, the revised 2300 from Mongoose Publishing, or QLI's 2320AD.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old December 15th, 2018, 05:49 PM
McPerth's Avatar
McPerth McPerth is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 7,806
Gallery : 0
Visit McPerth's Blog
McPerth has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Er.


Stutterwarp doesn't add normal space velocity, it sidesteps Newton by scaling up microjumping.


So the stutterwarp field shuts off, ship should have the velocity it had at stutterwarp initiation, or arguably none.


So IMO stutterwarp ships hit grav fields of the planet it stops, and just plinks into the planet.
The idea in the OP (and in the post it derivates from) is to let the gravigy of a planet to accelerate your ship, then stutterwarping away to be accelerated again, and so mounting up speed until it becomes a kinetic superbomb.

Then stutterwarping until your target, and, as you say, your speed is kept, so letting the ship to crash at this monstruous speed against the target planet.

Spoiler:
See that this is not too much different than CT Yaskoydray planet busters (IIRC as described in Secret of the Ancients), that accelerated by gracity to a portal that teleported it again to the starting point, so being accelerated again until near -c speeds, and then were released at those speeds against a planet


Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Now, there is one other aspect of the stutterwarp that might be an issue.

Since you are effectively teleporting entire ships into X space ahead of the original position, the ship could be set to rematerialize inside a station or other fixed object not stutterwarping. That might be a messy fusion event.
This is mostly handwaved in 2300AD setting, but it seems there's some safety that avoids it to happen, as no such collisions are reported in the entire (AFAIK) 2300AD literature.

My take on it (and just this, my take) is that the own gravity of any object, as insignificant as it can be, stops the warping.

See that a cololary of this would be that no bullet can hit a warping ship, as the time it stays in real space is too short (nanoseconds) to be hit, and it will not end up in another object. See that all anti-ship wepons in 2300AD are beams, be them detonation ones or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
The main stutterwarp WMD I came up with was an anti-matter warhead. A mini-stutterwarp takes a bottled isolated chunk of anti-matter and stutterwarps it into the same space as a duplicate of matter and- kaboom.
I'm afraid anti-mater weapons are still as science fiction in 2300AD setting as they are now...
__________________
Duke of ShaiaVland 3215 B64A998-E
Marquis of Ashtagz Tyui SR 1818C548786-8
SEH for actions in Extolay

I'm not afraid about bullets, what scares me is the speed at which they're incoming.

Last edited by McPerth; December 16th, 2018 at 01:23 PM.. Reason: typos/Gramar
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old December 16th, 2018, 01:05 PM
giant.robot's Avatar
giant.robot giant.robot is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 58
Gallery : 0
giant.robot Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon C View Post
That's fine for militaries, but not for terrorists.
One of the key aspects of terrorism is "we can do this bad thing any time and anywhere" but as the thread points out that's not really possible with this tactic. Old fashioned WMDs would be much more attractive for terrorists for the same reasons they're attractive today.

Terrorists are also interested in terror for the sake of social influence/control. Something so destructive as destroying a colony or continent (in the best case relativistic Footfall) would unite everyone in human space against the terror group.

It's the same argument as mass destruction today, some terror groups might convince themselves some massive event would cow their enemies but it would likely result in their own utter destruction. WMDs in the hands of terrorists would be more effective if they weren't used but the powers that be and populace at large knew they had them.


Last edited by giant.robot; December 16th, 2018 at 01:06 PM.. Reason: Added helpful illustration
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old December 16th, 2018, 01:20 PM
McPerth's Avatar
McPerth McPerth is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 7,806
Gallery : 0
Visit McPerth's Blog
McPerth has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by giant.robot View Post
One of the key aspects of terrorism is "we can do this bad thing any time and anywhere" but as the thread points out that's not really possible with this tactic. Old fashioned WMDs would be much more attractive for terrorists for the same reasons they're attractive today.

Terrorists are also interested in terror for the sake of social influence/control. Something so destructive as destroying a colony or continent (in the best case relativistic Footfall) would unite everyone in human space against the terror group.

It's the same argument as mass destruction today, some terror groups might convince themselves some massive event would cow their enemies but it would likely result in their own utter destruction. WMDs in the hands of terrorists would be more effective if they weren't used but the powers that be and populace at large knew they had them.
Fully agreed, terrism has political goals that make any such use of WMD probably countrproducent for themselves. And also happens to states, as the main value of those same WMD is more as a threat than as weapons to be really used (and probably would produce retaliation).

------------------------

This said (now mod hat on):

Please, beware the risk of any discussion about terrorim to turn into politics. It has been fine to now, but the line is thin, and I'd hate to have to act if things go that way
__________________
Duke of ShaiaVland 3215 B64A998-E
Marquis of Ashtagz Tyui SR 1818C548786-8
SEH for actions in Extolay

I'm not afraid about bullets, what scares me is the speed at which they're incoming.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old December 16th, 2018, 08:19 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,636
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Any reasonably fast space drive is inherently also a WMD.

If it can get you away from a gravity well, it can at least kill a city.

If it can go FTL, it should be able to crack a planet, or better.

My players realized very quickly that, since Stutterwarp didn't negate inertial vector, then you can use it to set orbit, or accumulate a huge vector and smash a planet.

Most system controllers are going to know the same. Any ship even starting to look like they're doing that is going to get dealt with severely.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu▒ dt▒ f+ fs++ ge▒ ih- inf▒ j▒ jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old December 18th, 2018, 03:05 PM
Brandon C Brandon C is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 883
Gallery : 0
Brandon C Citizen+Brandon C Citizen+
Default

My belief is that if stutterwarp can be used as a WMD, the French would have done so against the Kafers in retaliation for atrocities on Arcturus and Aurorae and I doubt any other nation involved in the war would have given more than a token protest.
__________________
A generous and sadistic GM,
Brandon Cope

My website: http://copeab.tripod.com
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old December 18th, 2018, 04:48 PM
Libris Libris is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Kilmarnock, Scotland
Posts: 140
Gallery : 0
Libris Citizen
Default

My take is that stutterwarp induces micro-jumps in the mega or giga hertz frequency making the chances of appearing inside something else pretty low - at least in a gravity well. Similarly, the local kinetic energy bleeds off in a gravity well when the drive is operated much like the stutterwarp discharge itself. The higher the local gravity the quicker it happens making kinetic attacks with stutterwarp vessels fairly impracticable. Although in the deeps you can do some clever stuff to get enough kinetic energy to make some spectacular drive flares when you cross the shelf into a system.

The most you're going to be able to get is in the range of double the potential energy you have above a planet. Not an insignificant amount of Joules to be fair but low enough that your ship vs the planet would be akin to insect vs windscreen.

Of course this is all handwavium science - but it's plausible sounding enough without just saying, 'nope can't do it'.
__________________
John Robertson - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately attributed to incompetence -
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old December 18th, 2018, 07:04 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,636
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Your take, libris, is obviously not grounded in the math.

If the stutterwarp operates at 1 GHz (1e9 hz) maximum, and can do 10 psl in gravity well, that's 29,970 km per second, 1e7 m/s ... For 1e-2 m per flick, during which time, at the 0.1g "cutoff", it can hover for 1e7 sec, and maybe 1e7 m/s normal vector, which is exactly matched by the displacement... Assuming the flicker takes 1 plank time ... So 1e14 joules per kilogram and roughly 4.2e12 j/kT ÷r 2.38e1 MT per tonne meds. The ability to overcome local gravity allows accumulated vector. When out just past the sub-C threshold, 10x the vector, and 100 x the vector... You can generate a vector of 0.999999C and, while dying from the hard rads, be utterly undetectable after release, until impact.

The issue is timing the impacts... So if you're in a spot where be to accumulation even hints of impact, they send intercept. To make a miss,just kill it before optimum, and it goes wide

Later aren't quite dumb enough to let it happen.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu▒ dt▒ f+ fs++ ge▒ ih- inf▒ j▒ jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old December 18th, 2018, 07:22 PM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Stockholm 🇸🇪
Posts: 2,437
Gallery : 0
AnotherDilbert Citizen+AnotherDilbert Citizen+AnotherDilbert Citizen+
Default

Near anything interesting (in a system) a stutterwarp ship will move in the region of 0.1 c. Each warp jump is roughly 100 m. (According to FFS.)

0.1 c = 30 000 km/s, so the drive will cycle in the region of 300 000 times per s (300 kHz).


The ship materialises about every 100 m, so will certainly hit anything thicker than 100 m.

If the ship is longer than 100 m it will hit anything in its path however small.

If the ship is longer than 50 m it will certainly hit anything thicker than 50 m.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old December 18th, 2018, 07:54 PM
Libris Libris is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Kilmarnock, Scotland
Posts: 140
Gallery : 0
Libris Citizen
Smile

Not classical maths. No. More McGuffin based TANSTAAFL principle.

As implied in previous posts you effectively gain a free amount of potential energy which can be converted indefinitely to kinetic energy as you yo-yo back and forth. By classic physics this totally breaks conservation of momentum. You're getting something for nothing.

However, having some aspect of the stutterwarp's quantum effect nullify this gain in energy and subsequent free momentum is not that unreasonable and neatly ties up the problem posed.

However, if canon is that vector is retained then it leads to all sorts of challenges.
__________________
John Robertson - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately attributed to incompetence -
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old December 18th, 2018, 08:00 PM
Libris Libris is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Kilmarnock, Scotland
Posts: 140
Gallery : 0
Libris Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Near anything interesting (in a system) a stutterwarp ship will move in the region of 0.1 c. Each warp jump is roughly 100 m. (According to FFS.)

0.1 c = 30 000 km/s, so the drive will cycle in the region of 300 000 times per s (300 kHz).


The ship materialises about every 100 m, so will certainly hit anything thicker than 100 m.

If the ship is longer than 100 m it will hit anything in its path however small.

If the ship is longer than 50 m it will certainly hit anything thicker than 50 m.
Well, a collision is a collision. Between conventional ships at orbital velocities each is likely to be confetti. A stutterwarp collision is going to have the same result with perhaps a considerable amount of extra radiation and really impressive explosion.
__________________
John Robertson - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately attributed to incompetence -
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EVA While Using Stutterwarp? SpaceBadger 2300AD & 2320 12 February 4th, 2013 01:34 PM
Stutterwarp Conversion Gray Lensman The Fleet 9 November 16th, 2011 05:26 PM
Without Stutterwarp Space Cadet In My 2300 Universe 4 May 10th, 2007 05:00 AM
Stutterwarp and Beyond Solo 2300AD & 2320 56 June 16th, 2003 10:23 PM
jump 0 --- stutterwarp spank The Fleet 5 January 26th, 2003 09:16 AM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.