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Space Badger's Reaver's Deep SpaceBadger's SBRD game

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  #121  
Old July 30th, 2013, 10:52 PM
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Ah, I misread it. My painkillers must be kicking in.

Sorry about that.
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  #122  
Old July 30th, 2013, 11:42 PM
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Personally, I like to be able to jump to/from an empty hex ... it doesn't bother me as a concept.

BUT, if you want to make it more dangerous, then just treat jumping from an empty hex exactly the same as jumping from the 10 to 100 diameter 'possible but dangerous' range. "Jump navigation requires micro-gravity for optimal precision ... no local gravity is as disorienting as too much local gravity".
  #123  
Old July 31st, 2013, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
Personally, I like to be able to jump to/from an empty hex ... it doesn't bother me as a concept.

BUT, if you want to make it more dangerous, then just treat jumping from an empty hex exactly the same as jumping from the 10 to 100 diameter 'possible but dangerous' range. "Jump navigation requires micro-gravity for optimal precision ... no local gravity is as disorienting as too much local gravity".
IMTU, I have it as just a +1 chance of mis-jump jumping INTO an "empty" hex, -(Navigator/2), rounded down. Jumping "out" is less dangerous, but may make navigation into the next system harder by way of precision; you'll get there, but you may be maneuvering longer than expected.
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  #124  
Old July 31st, 2013, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
Hokay....I just reread the jumpspace article Miller wrote in JTAS 24. It covers everything from the physics of jumpspace, a jump, then equipment needed and what they do, and all the angles on what and why goes wrong jumping.

From the article I have a theory on jumping into and out of empty hexes here: that we make it really hard for no good reason other than perhaps somewhere we heard that it should be. By this article it sounds like jumping in and out of empty hexes is easier than in and out of systems since you don't have all the variables of gravity and synching orbital planes to worry about.
The article describes jumping in the Classic Era; after the problem with deep space jumps has been solved. Which took place around the year 200 (or possibly a bit earlier).


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  #125  
Old July 31st, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
Yes, jumps to deep space hexes where there is no star system are still possible, but I think we need to make them more hazardous in some way, so they are not something casually done without great need.
I've always said that empty hex jumps don't work at all - if there's nothing there to precipitate you out of jump, then you just don't. What happens from there is a bit of a mystery.*

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I am thinking it could be a Navigation problem, that without a high gravity well to aim at (such as a star system) there is a greater chance of misjump - preferably not always fatal, but maybe very inconvenient.
If you really want to do it, then it *is* a Navigation problem: one that can only be done by a master Navigator. It would be calculating a jump to the intersection of several gravity wells - you would have to calculate out to an obscene decimal place the gravities encountered from each star at such a distance. Which pretty much makes it impossible for all but a tiny few (including those who just have a gift, and those who have the time to let a planet's worth of Cray's crunch the numbers). You think pi to 1.24 trillion digits is tough? This is tougher.

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Originally Posted by rancke View Post
I used to have this notion of the Vilani overcoming the problem of only having jump-1 by strapping maneuver drives to an asteroid, boosting into the void for several decades, then decelerating for an equal amount of time and winding up with a jump anchor only a couple of generations after the projects was undertaken -- something the First Imperium was perfectly likely to undertake, but which other star nations might be less inclined to attempt. Alas, the reference is to objects of planetary size, far beyond anyone's ability to move.
Very Vilani, indeed.

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Yeah, I prefer Astrogator myself and use it in my own chargen stuff, b ut Navigator still seems the official term.
Me, too, but CT makes them the same, saying it has to do with the ability to navigate by the stars. (Simplicity, indeed!)

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After all, there were still many tech adbances during the so-called Dark Ages in Europe in our own history.
Not sure what you would call "tech advances". Most of them were merely 'catching up'.

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and those are just legends anyway along with the tales of lost pirate gold hidden in the spot you jump into.
And, oddly enough, always arrive in an email from someone in a place called "Nigeria".

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At least fixed enough to make a dead reckoning to navigate by, especially given the variables in drop out position you'll have when your ship comes out of jump - it's not like a navigator will be realistically able to plot you onto a dime.
But, a good jump program and navigator should be able to put you onto a dime. At least, in a normal situation. When you add in the time variable, you might have a real problem knowing your position: how do you know that your chronometer is correct? You would normally synch it with the location of the star and planets where you arrive, and be confident that your jump really was 168 hours (minus 10 minutes, 12 seconds). You can assume, but that's going to make no one comfortable (except the sorts of people who die when they try this stuff - they're the sorts who say "Can't be done? Here, hold my beer and watch this!") with the answer.

Now, if you had a unique conjunction to which you could jump, and be certain of your position and your timing, then you could do your jump-out calculation. That would be where only the most intrepid could put down an "empty hex" jump destination.

* EDIT: Obviously, I'm not averse to other concepts, or I wouldn't have kept pouring forth my unfounded opinions
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  #126  
Old July 31st, 2013, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown View Post
I've always said that empty hex jumps don't work at all - if there's nothing there to precipitate you out of jump, then you just don't. What happens from there is a bit of a mystery.*
But not allowing it at all causes problems with many events in canon, if you are trying to follow the OTU.

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Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown View Post
If you really want to do it, then it *is* a Navigation problem: one that can only be done by a master Navigator. It would be calculating a jump to the intersection of several gravity wells - you would have to calculate out to an obscene decimal place the gravities encountered from each star at such a distance. Which pretty much makes it impossible for all but a tiny few (including those who just have a gift, and those who have the time to let a planet's worth of Cray's crunch the numbers). You think pi to 1.24 trillion digits is tough? This is tougher.
Then it's a Good Thing that the Fortunate Son will soon be encountering an Expert Navigator at its next stop to fill out the Bridge crew!
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  #127  
Old July 31st, 2013, 10:34 PM
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But not allowing it at all causes problems with many events in canon, if you are trying to follow the OTU.
What problems? I can't think of any canon event that cannot be explained in other ways. OTOH, it causes problems with the history of the first Interstellar Wars if you do allow it.

Allowing it seems to offer more interesting options for game playing, but it sure is contrary to OTU canon.


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  #128  
Old July 31st, 2013, 11:34 PM
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What problems? I can't think of any canon event that cannot be explained in other ways.
The travels of the March Harrier in The Traveller Adventure immediately spring to mind. They were explicitly using their added internal tankage to cross J-2 gaps by making two J-1 jumps. They even had one rendezvous in an empty hex, IIRC. I'm pretty sure I have seen other references, but not recalling them right now.
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  #129  
Old July 31st, 2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
The travels of the March Harrier in The Traveller Adventure immediately spring to mind. They were explicitly using their added internal tankage to cross J-2 gaps by making two J-1 jumps. They even had one rendezvous in an empty hex, IIRC. I'm pretty sure I have seen other references, but not recalling them right now.
The Traveller Adventure takes place 900 years after the techniques for deep space jumps were worked out. The ability to do deep space jumps in 1105 is not contradictory with an inability to do deep space jumps before ca. 200.


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  #130  
Old August 1st, 2013, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rancke View Post
The article describes jumping in the Classic Era; after the problem with deep space jumps has been solved. Which took place around the year 200 (or possibly a bit earlier).


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I know that Jumping into Empty Hexes was impossible in the Interstellar Wars Era, but where is the year ~200 date found for the resolution of the problem?
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