Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Traveller 5 > Traveller 5 > Pre-Release Discussion

Pre-Release Discussion Archive of the pre-release T5 Public

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old March 6th, 2013, 12:07 PM
BytePro BytePro is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,711
Gallery : 0
BytePro Citizen
Default

Software development is time consuming. There is little other actual inherent cost. Which is quite misleading in practicality - as most need or want to be compensated financially for their time.
  #22  
Old March 6th, 2013, 02:01 PM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,289
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BytePro View Post
Software development is time consuming. There is little other actual inherent cost. Which is quite misleading in practicality - as most need or want to be compensated financially for their time.
Modern game development only has a portion of its overall costs attributed to actual software development. It's a notable portion, but not the majority any more.

Most of the money goes in to asset (graphics, 3D models, motion capture, music, voice acting, writing) development, especially for games that use off the shelf engines for a majority of the mechanics.
  #23  
Old March 6th, 2013, 02:51 PM
savage's Avatar
savage savage is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 3,361
Gallery : 1
Visit savage's Blog
savage Citizen
Default Completely correct! And if I might add...

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
Modern game development only has a portion of its overall costs attributed to actual software development. It's a notable portion, but not the majority any more.

Most of the money goes in to asset (graphics, 3D models, motion capture, music, voice acting, writing) development, especially for games that use off the shelf engines for a majority of the mechanics.
Let's not forget Marketing (a big chunk), facilities (doing everything remote is a complexity), application development tools and systems, support staff (any legal, cleaning crews, testers...the list continues).

Game Development is a Subset of Applications Development. Applications Development on a Fortune 100 level is extremely expensive. It is one thing to write a few lines of code for a character development script, a few 3D graphics of a ship and a completely different level for getting hundreds of people working on a real-time financial system for a cellphone service provider.

Game Developers have been lucky because their staff has a passion for the work they're doing and are willing to put in excruciating hours keeping costs down. MMO's have been had some very serious cost burdens to consider.

When evaluating a Kickstarter campaigns I suggest being very realistic. See the amount of team experience and the talent they've worked with in the past. I recall someone wanted to do an iphone Traveller app. Cool but they said they ran out of money and halted the effort. Just saying....
__________________
Savage, JC, Adm.
Count John of Porozlo, Count Admiral Porozlo, KD SPIN2715
Lord John of Depot, Lord Admiral Corridor Fleet KSC KB, CORR1511
Sarriiu of Depot, CORR1511 50 KB
Count Efate, SPIN1705, Mar Skull, SPIN2420
Knight Ngimi ANTA2535, Mar Syzygy SOLO3006
TAS LISH2836
http://corridordepot.blogspot.com/
Cry Havoc and let slip the VARGRs of war.
William Shakespeare's Revised Works,"Julius Caesar", Act 3 scene 1. MTU654
  #24  
Old March 6th, 2013, 08:01 PM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,289
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by savage View Post
When evaluating a Kickstarter campaigns I suggest being very realistic. See the amount of team experience and the talent they've worked with in the past. I recall someone wanted to do an iphone Traveller app. Cool but they said they ran out of money and halted the effort. Just saying....
I think there were a couple, one for a new game by the creator of Wing Commander, and another one, of which I will got "Duh" when I hear the name, but can not recall but it was a popular space sim in the day.

Kickstarter is interesting, and I think it's a fine tool for getting a "mostly finished" product to final production. I think it works great for things like T5, and other physical products -- where you're effectively pre-ordering the game, and maybe some extra, and helping the creator get the volumes needed for production.

I see this a lot in modeling, where companies will basically commit to finishing the creation of a model (like a scale train car or locomotive) if they can get the pre-orders to make it worth their while. The markets are finicky, and interactive enough, that it's not necessary to risk on product development when you can get the orders done up front to guarantee a return.

But software? Something as "intangible" as a game? Heck no.

Those don't need pre-orders, they need investors. If the games are successful, they'll be successful. I can't see how such companies can be ready to return their Kickstarter funds if they fail, or how they'll not simply "rush it out the door", incomplete, "under" finished, once the money is gone if they run in to issues (I know, who ever hears about software projects running in to issues that delay them).

Actual products have formidable manufacturing costs (packaging, tooling, minimum quantities for manufacture, etc.). So, taking a basically finished product and getting it produce is typically a low risk endeavor.

But software, once it's done, distribution is a matter of standing up a website, show less need of final capital (certainly some is involved, but most of the software Kickstarters simply are not at this stage of release -- they're not even in beta).

So, good luck to them, and their early adopters, but me, I'll wait.
  #25  
Old March 6th, 2013, 08:56 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,088
Gallery : 53
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Whartung, you've got a serious misinterpretation of the Kickstarter system...

Kickstarter participants are required to accept the risk that the product might not materialize as promised, or might not be as represented when the final form comes in the mail.

There is no recourse and no refund if the Kickstarter funds, but the beneficiary fails to produce, other than the individual getting massive negative press and possibly not being allowed to do another KS.

Remember: KS isn't a store. They're an investment vehicle.

KS doesn't charge until the project meets the funding goal.
They don't ever refund (tho' at least one developer has done so when the project went south, but not the whole amount) unless you establish it was card fraud.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
  #26  
Old March 6th, 2013, 10:18 PM
savage's Avatar
savage savage is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 3,361
Gallery : 1
Visit savage's Blog
savage Citizen
Default game development

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
I think there were a couple, one for a new game by the creator of Wing Commander, and another one, of which I will got "Duh" when I hear the name, but can not recall but it was a popular space sim in the day.

Kickstarter is interesting, and I think it's a fine tool for getting a "mostly finished" product to final production....

But software? Something as "intangible" as a game? Heck no.

Those don't need pre-orders, they need investors. ...

Actual products have formidable manufacturing costs (packaging, tooling, minimum quantities for manufacture, etc.). So, taking a basically finished product and getting it produce is typically a low risk endeavor.

...So, good luck to them, and their early adopters, but me, I'll wait.
Aramis has a good point and Kickstarter is the popular tool of the moment. Most organizations I see on it have a team, example graphics, perhaps a demo, and a developed product plan. They have started and invested money in their product. I agree backing a kickstarter has risk but these are typically unfinished products in the planning or prototype stages. T5 for example, had a draft look, but needed serious analysis and work to review, edit and print. Music might be slightly different. They wrote 13 songs and one has been recorded in a professional studio as an example for the kickstarter people.

I agreed with your comments to BytePro. But also the complexity of Marketing and setting up the pieces for any product development are not simple. Most fail because they have not assessed a dependency and that risk is an impact or their schedule which was far too aggressive. I would not be suprised if most kickstarter projects do not get far beyond the initial backers.
__________________
Savage, JC, Adm.
Count John of Porozlo, Count Admiral Porozlo, KD SPIN2715
Lord John of Depot, Lord Admiral Corridor Fleet KSC KB, CORR1511
Sarriiu of Depot, CORR1511 50 KB
Count Efate, SPIN1705, Mar Skull, SPIN2420
Knight Ngimi ANTA2535, Mar Syzygy SOLO3006
TAS LISH2836
http://corridordepot.blogspot.com/
Cry Havoc and let slip the VARGRs of war.
William Shakespeare's Revised Works,"Julius Caesar", Act 3 scene 1. MTU654
  #27  
Old March 7th, 2013, 12:57 AM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,289
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
There is no recourse and no refund if the Kickstarter funds, but the beneficiary fails to produce, other than the individual getting massive negative press and possibly not being allowed to do another KS.
From the KS FAQ:
Quote:
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill (emphasis mine -- WH). (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
This suggests that they're on the hook to deliver Something. And anyone who has any experience with software knows the truth of the statement "It's what I asked for and not what I wanted." All of the features on a bullet list can be met, badly, and likely pass legal muster if the game ends up having to be rushed out in the end.

Quote:
Remember: KS isn't a store. They're an investment vehicle.
Yea, they keep saying that.

Quote:
Do backers get ownership or equity in the projects they fund?

No. Project creators keep 100% ownership of their work. Kickstarter cannot be used to offer financial returns or equity, or to solicit loans.
In reality it's a combination of a pre-order system (resulting in tangible goods) or a sponsorship/patronage system (get your name in the credits, invite to the launch gala).

And, this is all good -- I would simply point out that "investing" in a tangible product (such as T5 which effectively just needed to be printed and bound) is most likely a less risky investment than something intangible (a software product, a movie) which can have indefinite extent and very fluid goal posts.

That all said, I guess a game was announced and funded over $1M in 6 hours, but it was from a proven team, with a proven toolset coming back for a sequel. However, it also was stipulated that the executive producer is a) matching funds and b) will fund the project to completion, which is reassuring. (Of course he IS an investor, not merely a sponsor...)
  #28  
Old March 7th, 2013, 02:14 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,088
Gallery : 53
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
From the KS FAQ:


This suggests that they're on the hook to deliver Something. And anyone who has any experience with software knows the truth of the statement "It's what I asked for and not what I wanted." All of the features on a bullet list can be met, badly, and likely pass legal muster if the game ends up having to be rushed out in the end.
The courts haven't been sympathetic... the few I've heard going to court have been mostly judicial nullification - case dismissed before trial for lack of standing, and one rumored jury nullification. Most people are only in for small claims levels anyway, so there's very little risk of substantiative suit.

Especially since several of them specifically do not promise the final product, only swag.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
  #29  
Old March 7th, 2013, 09:48 AM
Rynak Rynak is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 58
Gallery : 0
Rynak Citizen
Default

I think it's a little early to start beating the legal recourse drum. The lack of information is concerning, but that could be attributed to a number of issues. The majority of Kickstarters have delivered late.
  #30  
Old March 7th, 2013, 11:06 AM
savage's Avatar
savage savage is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 3,361
Gallery : 1
Visit savage's Blog
savage Citizen
Default Kickstarter

The real point here is that a T5 MMO, Second Life style, or Single Player is not a simple undertaking.

I brought up kickstarter just to point out this new means of funding projects and what is being seen. This really has nothing to do with T5 software at the moment.

Both Aramis and Whartung are correct in their assessments of kickstarter projects. I have funded two (one is T5) and recommend a cautious evaluation of who your investing with or support. Like the stock market this is your money.

But SWAG can be fun!
__________________
Savage, JC, Adm.
Count John of Porozlo, Count Admiral Porozlo, KD SPIN2715
Lord John of Depot, Lord Admiral Corridor Fleet KSC KB, CORR1511
Sarriiu of Depot, CORR1511 50 KB
Count Efate, SPIN1705, Mar Skull, SPIN2420
Knight Ngimi ANTA2535, Mar Syzygy SOLO3006
TAS LISH2836
http://corridordepot.blogspot.com/
Cry Havoc and let slip the VARGRs of war.
William Shakespeare's Revised Works,"Julius Caesar", Act 3 scene 1. MTU654
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Traveller rpg computer games Bill54fish Software Solutions 5 October 6th, 2010 09:43 AM
Traveller-esque Computer Games Supplement Four Classic Traveller 113 April 12th, 2007 11:12 AM
Traveller-like computer games? Loki The Lone Star 55 May 23rd, 2005 10:13 AM
Where can I find a list of open Traveller Grip games? ACK!! Recruiting Office 6 December 28th, 2003 11:34 PM
Traveller Computer Games? Spinward Scout The Lone Star 7 September 3rd, 2003 09:33 AM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.