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Whipsnade January 21st, 2017 10:39 PM

Deyis II Redux
 
I've started this thread to avoid committing one of my all-too-usual sins; crapping up another thread.

While trying to help the Imperial Cartographer(1) check AotI against the Traveller Map, I realized that the AotI version of Deyis II is profoundly different from the previous version found in canon.

Deyis II is appears a few times in MT. An aside in Knightfall mentions the planet as hosting an access portal to the Primordial City's pocket universe. In MT's Folio Adventure 2 Outpost Alpha, which was distributed as part of the Referee's Gaming Kit, the planet is described in far more detail.

In MT, Deyis has a 70 year orbit meaning it "enjoys" a 35 year long summer and winter. Naturally, both flora and fauna have evolved various strategies like hibernation, robust eggs/seed pods, and the like. During the Ziru Sirka, the Vilani visited the world during it's winter, decided it wasn't worth settling, and moved on. During the Rule of Man, the Solomani visited during it's summer, decided to give it a try, and founded a colony that mysteriously failed.

After that, the world was was never settled and rarely visited. There is very little of commercial value while the life cycles of the flora and fauna make their use and/or transplantation very difficult.

During the Rebellion era, a party from Dulinor's faction vists the world to refuel and tangles with a scouting party from Lucan's faction. Most importantly, the party contacts a previously unsuspected sophont species; the Kebkh. (It also turns out the Kebkh were responsible for the failed Solomani colony.)

In AotI, Deyis orbit isn't mentioned. In 501 the planetary population is 94 million, roughly half human and half Kebkh. While the system was brought into the Imperium during the Second Century IE, it was settled far in the past as a Karand palace dating from the Second Millenium, -8000 to -7000 IE, exists.

Not only are the Kebkh known in AotI, they're integrated into the Imperium and enough are living off Deyis when that world was scrubbed in 501 that some are living on Reference in 620.

I can't see how the MT and AotI stories can be reconciled.

Finally, in the other thread Robject mentions that Our Absent Friend Don took an interest in Deyis II and the Kebkh with an eye towards "cleaning up" DGP's Primordials/Baddies from the Core suggestion. (There was an implied connection between the Primordials and Kebkh. IIRC, Mr. Fugate touched on the topic in his Q&A column in a MTJ issue.)

The Deyis II story in AotI may be how the Primordials/Baddies are removed from canon, much like how one of Strephon's diary entries buried IRIS.

All this could be bunk, of course, as I'm just a gray headed old fat man with too much time on his hands. ;)


1 - Hi Inexorabletash!

maksimsmelchak January 22nd, 2017 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whipsnade (Post 557211)
I can't see how the MT and AotI stories can be reconciled.

In typically GDW fashion, wield the retcon sledgehammer.

The Kebkh are now 5-peds according to AOTI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whipsnade (Post 557211)
Finally, in the other thread Robject mentions that Our Absent Friend Don took an interest in Deyis II and the Kebkh with an eye towards "cleaning up" DGP's Primordials/Baddies from the Core suggestion. (There was an implied connection between the Primordials and Kebkh. IIRC, Mr. Fugate touched on the topic in his Q&A column in a MTJ issue.)

*** What is the Core suggestion, please? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

mike wightman January 22nd, 2017 02:59 PM

The primordials are an advanced race that pre-dates the Ancients by a considerable margin. Their juvenile form is the race on Deyis.

They long ago left this part of space to head to the galactic core.

Grandfather gave the Zhodani their precog machine to spur them to investigate where the primordials went off to.

During the MT/Rebellion era they (the primordials/sparklers) were going to come back. and cause all sort of mischief - to be detailed in the adventure that would have accompanied the Zhodani/Droyne alien book

MT Journal issue 4 tells you everything we know.

maksimsmelchak January 22nd, 2017 03:46 PM

Thanks, Mike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 557253)
The primordials are an advanced race that pre-dates the Ancients by a considerable margin. Their juvenile form is the race on Deyis.

Oy. So Kebkh = Primordial. Oy vey.

I got the impression that the Kebkh were furred mammals.

Marc made them 5-peds in AOTI.

So, now they later turn into reptilianoid snails... LOL

Traveller is always good for an interesting story. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 557253)
They long ago left this part of space to head to the galactic core.

I remember that now. Thanks. And numerous subplots that the ancients and Primordials had a love/hate relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 557253)
Grandfather gave the Zhodani their precog machine to spur them to investigate where the primordials went off to. During the MT/Rebellion era they (the primordials/sparklers) were going to come back. and cause all sort of mischief - to be detailed in the adventure that would have accompanied the Zhodani/Droyne alien book.

OK. Cool. I recall it now. Wish I had Whipsnade's memory for the minutia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 557253)
MT Journal issue 4 tells you everything we know.

I haven't read that book for at least a decade... LOL

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Whipsnade January 22nd, 2017 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maksimsmelchak (Post 557256)
Oy. So Kebkh = Primordial.


Not quite.

MT Kebkh = Primordial. AotI/T5 Kebkh = Something Else Entirely.

It's pretty clear that MT Deyis II =/= AotI/T5 Deyis II.

Quote:

Oy vey.
That's putting it mildly. :D

Quote:

I got the impression that the Kebkh were furred mammals.
They sort of were, but...

Quote:

Marc made them 5-peds in AOTI.
... they were changed and - most likely - deliberately so.

Quote:

So, now they later turn into reptilianoid snails.
The "videos" seen at the Shimmering City in Knightfall show the "adult" Primordials simply as larger versions of the "juvenile" form. The "adults" walk upright while the "juveniles" walk on all fours with the behavior of the "adults" is shown as less foolish and involve psionics.

The large furry sessile (?) nautilidae Mr. Fugate writes about in MTJ #4 seem to be a body form which either occurs later in the life cycle or (perhaps) one that is deliberately chosen.

Quote:

Wish I had Whipsnade's memory for the minutia.
I put on two different color socks this morning. Believe me, you don't want my memory. ;)

maksimsmelchak January 28th, 2017 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whipsnade (Post 557264)
Not quite.
MT Kebkh = Primordial. AotI/T5 Kebkh = Something Else Entirely.

It's pretty clear that MT Deyis II =/= AotI/T5 Deyis II.

That's putting it mildly. :D

They sort of were, but...

... they were changed and - most likely - deliberately so.

The "videos" seen at the Shimmering City in Knightfall show the "adult" Primordials simply as larger versions of the "juvenile" form. The "adults" walk upright while the "juveniles" walk on all fours with the behavior of the "adults" is shown as less foolish and involve psionics.

The large furry sessile (?) nautilidae Mr. Fugate writes about in MTJ #4 seem to be a body form which either occurs later in the life cycle or (perhaps) one that is deliberately chosen.

I put on two different color socks this morning. Believe me, you don't want my memory. ;)

Thank you, Whipsnade, for your thoughtful reply.

I realize that the Primordials are veritable bullseye of retconning.

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

robject September 17th, 2017 02:17 PM

If pushed, I will comb my emails for the references. Barring that, my faulty memory thinks this:

(1) Don McKinney wanted the Primordials scrubbed clean from canon. I believe it was therefore his idea that Deyis II be the world that is scrubbed in AOTI. Marc agreed.

[edit: actually it's not that straightforward. Apparently scrubbing Deyis was indeed Marc's idea, and carried out by Andrea Vallance in some writings, but also heartily approved of by Don.]

(2) I want the Primordials partly in, approximately but not exactly to the degree that Knightfall uses them. Don and Marc both dislike the term; since I don't care what we call them, I'm fine with that. Also, mentioning the word "Primordials" around Don would cause him to react strongly negatively. So again change the name but keep them as a long-extinct race.

(3) Joe's vision for the Primordials (as Baddies from the Core) therefore doesn't exist.

(4) ? There might be a (4). Don't know.


EDIT:
Quote:

Originally Posted by June 26, 2014, Don McKinney
Marc told me a long time ago that the primordials never happened. The sophonts in the MT Referee's Kit are there, but the primordials never happened, and they don't turn into primordials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug 2016, Marc Miller
The Precursors. Strange pocket universes. (?) -3 million.

(I.e. Due to the baggage that comes with calling them Primordials)

GypsyComet September 18th, 2017 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robject (Post 573677)
(3) Joe's vision for the Primordials (as Baddies from the Core) therefore doesn't exist.

Since they were only exposed through Joe's somewhat catty publishing of that "this is what GDW took from you by reclaiming Traveller from us" outline, the Baddies don't exist at all except in the desires of those who saw everything from DGP as exalted. That it would have extended the Rebellion's decade-long and Imperium-wide spectator event another five or more years and wrecked the setting even more than was already the case is widely ignored.

The Baddies in that speculative form can be safely ignored, even while some of their preparatory work (the adventure in the screen, the unrest among the Zhodani) survives to be re-interpreted.

Marc has re-written Deyis II in a way that can explain why the Kebkh found in the MT era would be a surprise. The world was scrubbed and reset, but apparently quietly reseeded later. Whether the Kebkh of AotI are the same as those found in MT is an open question, but I can see a couple explanations:
-They aren't the same. The beings found in the MT era have been tagged as Kebkh by the Agent (or similar) in Imperial records to obfuscate the originals.
-They are the same species, modified through a clandestine effort to appear different in the two eras. This effort could be Agent driven, sought by the surviving off-world Kebkh, or (to dip into the Primordials/Baddies well just slightly) a natural drift by a species already prone to polymorphism as they adapted to a "new" world.

Knightfall's Primordials, including the Referee's secret and supposedly objective data, can be hand-waved by the simple artifice of being converted to in-universe subjective speculation. The ruins found were obviously advanced, so throwing off even the Imperium's high tech methods of estimating age is trivial.


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