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aramis December 24th, 2018 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 597072)
My STA ship crew nails it like a show, we are pretty much aceing the game. But I think the mechanics are overly complex and precise, I keep wishing I could have easier die roll generation.

My STA Group liked my adventures, but found the system rewarding dice-cheating.

Fundamentally, the issues I have with 2d20 are these:
  1. Announcing a nat-20 is not in the player's interests in any way, so many are tempted not to.
  2. GM's threat is a public value, and is not capped
  3. Early GM threat can lead to situations where the players are in the hole, the threat trigger is down to 16, and the GM can justify nerfing the * out of player by threat spends, thus resulting in NPC successes and PC failures in a snowball effect.
  4. Threat presumes an adversarial GM being reigned in by it, and a meek GM being emboldened. Since I am neither, I simply found it cumbersome. I doubt it will reign in an adversarial GM at all, and meek GM's tend to be few and far between. Meekness is almost antithetic to GMing.

mike wightman December 24th, 2018 05:58 AM

If players cheat at their dice throws show them the door - I am the only one allowed to fudge rolls at my table :)

More seriously I have found the cycle Aramis describes models the original series pretty well.

Kirk and his senior officers vital to the running of the ship beam down to the planet of the week. They get in deep over their heads. They eventually succeed against the adversity.
I've been watching a lot of digitally remastered original series recently :)

I am not a fan of meta currency in games, however. I prefer Genesys to 2d20 and CT situation throws of 2d6 trump the lot IMHO.

aramis December 24th, 2018 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 597090)
If players cheat at their dice throws show them the door - I am the only one allowed to fudge rolls at my table :)

Catching them often requires a level of paranoia about rolls that is uncomfortable.
Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 597090)
More seriously I have found the cycle Aramis describes models the original series pretty well.

Kirk and his senior officers vital to the running of the ship beam down to the planet of the week. They get in deep over their heads. They eventually succeed against the adversity.
I've been watching a lot of digitally remastered original series recently :)

My players were, on several occasions, NOT able to recover. I had a Threat pile of over 20 unspent, the threat rating was increased to the maximum 16-20, they had spent all their determination more than once... (which, yes, means they'd all gotten refills on Determination from use of values...) and were unable to recover and finish the missions within the character-time set by the adventure (and this happened on official adventures - my own don't use timers as an autofail at completion).

Failure being an option is not a bad thing. Failure being determined by the first 20 minutes of a 240 minute session due to bad rolls...

Thing is the threat snowball. PC momentum is a shared resource, capped at 6.

NPC's use threat as momentum. If PC's don't have momentum, they can instead give the GM threat.

It's not the "get in deep and dig out" but "dig in so far that the walls cave in upon you."

In the adventure where they're aiding a klingon colony... Doomed to Repeat the Past

3 players. Thus 3 starting threat. The first roll, a Target number 2 - just to be safe, they bought 3 dice (3 threat gained) then the roll was {4, 16, 16, 19, 20} with a skill+Discipline of 15. So, failure, and a spend of threat. They took a complication Player suggested of data corruption. All further rolls on the challenge are now difficulty 3. Next player, with a total asset of 14, but in specialty (giving him thus double success on a ≤4), spent 3 more threat in an attempt kickstart the momentum cycle.... and got {2, 15, 16, 20, 20} - 4 more threat, which became a "Transmissible to Humans" trait - and a +1 threat range for duration, and 2 more threat...

They had me over 10 in the first two rolls, and had blown 2 hours already....
A combination of bad rolls, and me only spending threat for NPC momentum and when they rolled a complication, by the end, they were out of time, infected, the klingons were vaporizing their colony, the research vessel was also infected, and Engineering and the Bridge were on their separate life support to limp the ship back to Narenda Station. Both PC's dead, by the way. From the virus.

Supplement Four December 24th, 2018 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 597163)
Catching them often requires a level of paranoia about rolls that is uncomfortable.


My players were, on several occasions, NOT able to recover. I had a Threat pile of over 20 unspent, the threat rating was increased to the maximum 16-20, they had spent all their determination more than once... (which, yes, means they'd all gotten refills on Determination from use of values...) and were unable to recover and finish the missions within the character-time set by the adventure (and this happened on official adventures - my own don't use timers as an autofail at completion).

Failure being an option is not a bad thing. Failure being determined by the first 20 minutes of a 240 minute session due to bad rolls...

Thing is the threat snowball. PC momentum is a shared resource, capped at 6.

NPC's use threat as momentum. If PC's don't have momentum, they can instead give the GM threat.

It's not the "get in deep and dig out" but "dig in so far that the walls cave in upon you."

In the adventure where they're aiding a klingon colony... Doomed to Repeat the Past

3 players. Thus 3 starting threat. The first roll, a Target number 2 - just to be safe, they bought 3 dice (3 threat gained) then the roll was {4, 16, 16, 19, 20} with a skill+Discipline of 15. So, failure, and a spend of threat. They took a complication Player suggested of data corruption. All further rolls on the challenge are now difficulty 3. Next player, with a total asset of 14, but in specialty (giving him thus double success on a ≤4), spent 3 more threat in an attempt kickstart the momentum cycle.... and got {2, 15, 16, 20, 20} - 4 more threat, which became a "Transmissible to Humans" trait - and a +1 threat range for duration, and 2 more threat...

They had me over 10 in the first two rolls, and had blown 2 hours already....
A combination of bad rolls, and me only spending threat for NPC momentum and when they rolled a complication, by the end, they were out of time, infected, the klingons were vaporizing their colony, the research vessel was also infected, and Engineering and the Bridge were on their separate life support to limp the ship back to Narenda Station. Both PC's dead, by the way. From the virus.

Reason number 452 why I can't stand the 2d20 system.

aramis December 24th, 2018 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supplement Four (Post 597164)
Reason number 452 why I can't stand the 2d20 system.

There are a couple good ideas in STA that are exportable - and I expect them to make it into Dune if Dune is 2d20...
  1. secondary characters. If your main character cannot participate in a given scene, one of the named extras becomes yours. If no named extras, name one and use them. (in the above debacle, both players were playing previously unnamed extras due to having run out of established named extras)
  2. the momentum system. It's a great idea. It just doesn't work well with the complication system.
  3. The traits/discipline interactions.
  4. ships: have stats used in ship combat with the relevant character's Discipline (=skill); ship's crews have default skill levels for use when a PC/named extra isn't doing it.
  5. players always roll for named extras.
The secondary characters/named extras are not a novel concept; they are unusual but my first encounter with such a system was in Ars Magica in 1989.

Fixing the complication system is easy. give the player 2 personal momentum (outside the max 6 group pool, must use personal before group) or half a determination point for taking the complication or pay 2 for no complication. And, if the GM spends threat on stuff that momentum cannot, he puts it into the group momentum... Solves the fundamental flaws.

The traits and discipline system works just fine - nerf yourself with the traid to gain determination points, use a relevant one with a determination to reroll or autosucceed...

Supplement Four December 24th, 2018 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 597171)
secondary characters. If your main character cannot participate in a given scene, one of the named extras becomes yours.

LOL!

I used to do just this with FASA Trek BITD. I'd have each player roll up three characters. Their main character was one of the "stars", the department heads, like the Captain, Science Officer, Engineer, etc.

The second, back-up character was a "guest star", so a specialist, geologist, maybe even a civilian, if the story called for it.

The third character was a red shirt type--a security officer, yeoman, orderly, or some such.

Then, as we played, and the scenes changed, each player would always have someone to play.






Quote:

[*]the momentum system. It's a great idea. It just doesn't work well with the complication system.
I'd like it a lot more if PCs couldn't affect other PCs with the Threat.

BRJN December 26th, 2018 11:56 PM

If Modiphus is the same group who just picked up Vampire from White Wolf, cleaning up that mess may put everything else they want to do on the back burner for a while.

aramis December 27th, 2018 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRJN (Post 597299)
If Modiphus is the same group who just picked up Vampire from White Wolf, cleaning up that mess may put everything else they want to do on the back burner for a while.

well, that's news to me...

I could see the WoD engine being ported to Dune easily...

Supplement Four December 27th, 2018 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 597307)
well, that's news to me...

I could see the WoD engine being ported to Dune easily...

CLICK HERE FOR MODIPHIUS' VAMPIRE PAGE.

It's not clear if 2d20 is being used.

This may be a new business model--a partnership, rather than re-imagining the game in-house. I'm not sure.

Maybe there's hope for Dune.



EDIT: That Vampire core rulebook is $51 bucks! Eeek!

Looking at the dice set that they are selling, it doesn't look like it is 2d20, but there are custom dice (10 siders) among the lot. These are called "Hunger Dice".

BRJN December 30th, 2018 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 597307)
well, that's news to me...

The details probably belong in the Pit (of which I am not a member.)
A summary of what I learned reading discussions on EnWorld:

White Wolf's Vampire expansion covering Chechnya ham-handedly attributed an IRL modern-day policy to the fictional Vampires. Social activist groups, writing-a-good-quality-game enthusiast / advocates, and the Chechnyan Government all took offense (for different reasons).

This controversy was the proximate cause of White Wolf being dissolved as a going concern, and Vampire being handed to somebody else.


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