Citizens of the Imperium

Citizens of the Imperium (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/index.php)
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-   -   [SBRD] Prep: setting discussion (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30664)

rancke July 30th, 2013 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447003)
Still, the ability to do two J-2 without refueling on the standard tanks that you already have is nothing to sneeze at.

Are you talking about demountable or collapsible tanks? Because drop tank aren't invented until the late 11th Century. It's not that they couldn't have been built with the technology available during the Long Night if they had known how to build them. It's that no one had yet figured out how to build them.


Hans

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447005)
Are you talking about demountable or collapsible tanks? Because drop tank aren't invented until the late 11th Century. It's not that they couldn't have been built with the technology available during the Long Night if they had known how to build them. It's that no one had yet figured out how to build them.

So... I guess that is another divergence from the OTU, because I really like Sabredog's ship design, and the drop tanks are an important part of it. ;)

DaveChase July 30th, 2013 07:57 AM

Drama points sound a lot like Fate points in Warhammer RPG.

I have no problem with them.

Fritz_Brown July 30th, 2013 12:44 PM

So, boss, what's the TL we're dealing with? I've never used a pre-Imperial setting before. Is there such a thing as a grav bike? How retro must we go? (Yeah, say that last sentence with a rhythm to it, 'cause it rhymes.) ;)

Sorry for having to do most of this in email, so far, but I get home from vacation tomorrow night. Then I will be back to my always available crappy internet connection.

I'm looking forward to jumping into this - I had loads of fun with our Official 30th Anniversary Classic Traveller PbP game. :D

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 447034)
So, boss, what's the TL we're dealing with? I've never used a pre-Imperial setting before. Is there such a thing as a grav bike? How retro must we go? (Yeah, say that last sentence with a rhythm to it, 'cause it rhymes.) ;)

We determined in another thread that max TL of the Rule of Man was 12, and nobody major got higher than that until Sylea, approaching the beginning of the Third Imperium.

There may be a few TL 12 places left (Earth, frex), but the highest TL worlds in the campaign area will be at TL 11, with TL 10 much more common for civilized worlds. Considering this is the Long Night and the campaign is in an area somewhat frequently torn by war and raiding, most worlds have lost some technical production capacity (even if they still have knowledge in a library), so are lower than 10; some are way lower, leading to the mixed up TLs seen from world to world in the later time of 1105.

Really, guys, I am very happy that y'all are excited about the campaign, but I am working to give you some specific world examples, if you can wait a few more days!

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 447034)
How retro must we go? (Yeah, say that last sentence with a rhythm to it, 'cause it rhymes.) ;)

How low can you go? How low can you go? LIMBO!!! :rofl:

Actually, pretty dang low. Don't be surprised if you eventually encounter some small colonies that have suffered so badly in Reaver attacks that they have essentially no tech left (someone either miscalculated and killed the cow rather than keep it to milk later, or else was just too evil or stupid to care). These folks might be subsisting as hunter/gatherers; their knowledge of technology and other worlds would depend on how good they are at preserving a few books or passing on oral traditions. Places like that, kind-hearted traders could really do some good :), although getting paid might be problematic.

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 03:51 PM

I just made this an addition to the Ship Rules section in the blog, but everyone seems more comfortable discussing here instead of in blog commetns, so I am just gonna post it here also:

Jumps to Deep Space: Discussions w Fritz about colonization have pointed up a problem w the fuel-usage rules above - w J-2 drive and ability to do two jumps, gaps of three or four parsecs are no longer of much consequence to J-2 travel. Yes, jumps to deep space hexes where there is no star system are still possible, but I think we need to make them more hazardous in some way, so they are not something casually done without great need. I am thinking it could be a Navigation problem, that without a high gravity well to aim at (such as a star system) there is a greater chance of misjump - preferably not always fatal, but maybe very inconvenient. Where these routes have been found necessary or desirable, some brave spacers have had to first jump to the empty hex to establish a gravitic beacon to make the jump safer for other ships to follow. Still, a gravitic beacon is nowhere the simulated mass of an actual star system, so precise coordinates to use the beacon are a big help. I can see all kinds of plot potential here!

Unfortunately, I am just making this up off the top of my head, and today is kind of a bad day so I am on lots of meds, so please point out any problems or other considerations that I may have missed.

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 04:35 PM

Attention All Players in [SBRD] Campaignj:
 
Attention All Players in [SBRD] Campaignj:

Guys, I have been writing a LOT of stuff yesterday and today that I would lik eto hear feedback from y'all about, opinions or suggestions. It is kinda scattered around, so you should look at the blog and this thread, and I think some in the Characters thread, too.

Also, LiNeNoIse, not trying to rush you as I still have lots to do on getting the campaign ready (target date to start play is Aug 8 or 9), but I haven't heard anything from you about a character concept. The rest of the PCs are all listed over in the Characters thread, and I will need to make some NPCs to fill out the crew, so it would be nice to have some idea what niche you see your PC filling.


Edit: especially look at idea Sabredog suggested about die-rolling in the game - it is kinda hidden in the comments of the Drama Points blog page - but I would like to hear your thoughts on pro and con rather than just decided this myself, as I can see it being something that some would LIKE and others HATE.

DaveChase July 30th, 2013 05:09 PM

Dead reckoning in empty hexes (IMO)

Jumping out of an empty hex that is only 1 Jump from any known star takes the following mods to make a new navigation chart
+6 hours (minus Nav skill level)
-1 DM to roll

Jumping out of an empty hex that is 2 Jump from any known star takes the following mods
+12 hrs (minus 1 hour per Nav Skill level)
-2 DM to roll

3 Hexes from any known star
+24 hours (minus 1 per Nav skill level)
-4 DM to roll

4 hexes from any known star
+48 hrs (same mod as above)
-8 DM to roll

etc

of course if there is known beacon in the immediate area all mods are 1/2 the listed above
If there is waystation (like maybe a megacorp or military installation) all mods are 1/3 of the above if the station is willing to share the data

Dave Chase

rancke July 30th, 2013 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447056)
Jumps to Deep Space: Discussions w Fritz about colonization have pointed up a problem w the fuel-usage rules above - w J-2 drive and ability to do two jumps, gaps of three or four parsecs are no longer of much consequence to J-2 travel.

Any low-jump ship can have the ability to do two jumps, even with standard fuel usage (10% per jump number) and without drop tanks. Demountable and collapsible tanks allow a ship to carry fuel for more jumps along. I think it's possible to design a jump-1 ship that can do 7 jumps between refuelling.

Quote:

Yes, jumps to deep space hexes where there is no star system are still possible, but I think we need to make them more hazardous in some way, so they are not something casually done without great need. I am thinking it could be a Navigation problem, that without a high gravity well to aim at (such as a star system) there is a greater chance of misjump - preferably not always fatal, but maybe very inconvenient.
"DEEP SPACE JUMPS. The mathematics of jump navigation is much simpler when there is a large mass, a star or very massive planet in normal space close to each end of the jump. During the Interstellar Wars era, neither Terran nor Imperial navigators[*] are able to plan a jump that starts or ends in deep interstellar space, far away from any such massive object.

[...]

Of course, interstellar space is not entirely empty. An enterprising astronomer may be able to find massive objects even in the empty hexes on the maps: rogue sunless planets, large comets, "brown dwarf" stars, and so on. Such objects could easily serve as an "anchor" for one end or the other of a jump.
[GT:Interstellar Wars, p. 171]
[*] Astrogators! They guide starships between the stars, not surface scows across ponds! <mumble, mumble, grumble>
(Note that such dark worlds are much rare and/or difficult to detect in the Traveller Universe than in the Real Universe.)

The astrogational invention that allowed deep space jumps was invented some time during the period covered by the Dark Nebula game, somewhere around 200 (I think -- I don't have the game myself).

Quote:

Where these routes have been found necessary or desirable, some brave spacers have had to first jump to the empty hex to establish a gravitic beacon to make the jump safer for other ships to follow.
Jump? Not fly by STL?

I used to have this notion of the Vilani overcoming the problem of only having jump-1 by strapping maneuver drives to an asteroid, boosting into the void for several decades, then decelerating for an equal amount of time and winding up with a jump anchor only a couple of generations after the projects was undertaken -- something the First Imperium was perfectly likely to undertake, but which other star nations might be less inclined to attempt. Alas, the reference is to objects of planetary size, far beyond anyone's ability to move.

Quote:

Still, a gravitic beacon is nowhere the simulated mass of an actual star system, so precise coordinates to use the beacon are a big help. I can see all kinds of plot potential here!
Indeed. Another instance where fun would seem to trump canon.

Quote:

Unfortunately, I am just making this up off the top of my head, and today is kind of a bad day so I am on lots of meds, so please point out any problems or other considerations that I may have missed.
Basically, if it's easy, anyone can do it. Meaning that you'd have to calibrate rather carefully how much effort (i.e. cost) is involved in setting up a deep space anchor to make them rare but not too rare.


Hans

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
Any low-jump ship can have the ability to do two jumps, even with standard fuel usage (10% per jump number) and without drop tanks. Demountable and collapsible tanks allow a ship to carry fuel for more jumps along. I think it's possible to design a jump-1 ship that can do 7 jumps between refuelling.

And that is perfectly OK w me, as it requires special planning and effort, or specially designed ships, to cross those significant gaps. It isn't just a routine thing.


*snip GT: Interstellar Wars quotes*

Thanks, I forgot about that. I think I prefer that jumping to/from "empty" hexes be very difficult, not impossible - elsewise how did the Vilani w J-1 ever get far from Vland? Do we have any canon on when the Vilani got J-2?

And as Dave Chase noted above, your chances of making successful jumps into such "empty" hexes can be dramatically improved by factors such as a gravitic beacon or detailed notes about the route - sorry, Dave, my head is not good for analyzing numbers right now, will look at your suggestions again later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
[*] Astrogators! They guide starships between the stars, not surface ships across ponds! <mumble, mumble, grumble>

Yeah, I prefer Astrogator myself and use it in my own chargen stuff, b ut Navigator still seems the official term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
The astrogational invention that allowed deep space jumps was invented some time during the period covered by the Dark Nebula game, somewhere around 200 (I think -- I don't have the game myself).

As I sadi above, I think it must have been possible before this, but perhaps very hazardous. Maybe someone on one of th emore advanced worlds in Daibei sector (TL 11, maybe even 12, during Long Night) figured this out earlier in my campaign, to make it a little less hazardous. After all, there were still many tech adbances during the so-called Dark Ages in Europe in our own history.

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
Jump? Not fly by STL?

I used to have this notion of the Vilani overcoming the problem of only having jump-1 by strapping maneuver drives to an asteroid, boosting into the void for several decades, then decellerating for an equal amount of time and winding up with a jump anchor only a couple of generations after the projects was undertaken -- something the First Imperium was perfectly likely to undertake, but which other star nations might be less inclined to attempt. Alas, the reference is to objects of planetary size, far beyond anyone's ability to move.

Thanks, Hans, somehow I missed this bit on first reading. Too quick to hit Reply.

I don't know of much canon on early Vilani tech advances w- will have to look at that I guess as I am planning Vilani colonization of Reavers' Deep and Daibei. Does gravitic tech always go hand in hand with Jump tech? I wonder when the Vilani got J-2?

I could see them sending an STL mission out to make that asteroid beacon you suggested, using some gravitic tech to make its mass appear more than it really is. Big problem w that STL mission is that if yiou make it go relatively fast to get there, you also have to carry fuel to make it STOP (w no grav help from any star system or planets) in the location where you want it in emplty space.

rancke July 30th, 2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447068)
Thanks, I forgot about that. I think I prefer that jumping to/from "empty" hexes be very difficult, not impossible - elsewise how did the Vilani w J-1 ever get far from Vland?

One possible explanation is that they searched and searched and searched and eventually found some naturally occurring anchors to connect the mains. Another is that they crossed the gaps using SLT. The Imperium game allows ship to move one hex (half a light-year) per year. 7 years to cross a gap is an impediment that can be surmounted given sufficient motivation.

Quote:

Do we have any canon on when the Vilani got J-2?
In -5430.

Quote:

Yeah, I prefer Astrogator myself and use it in my own chargen stuff, but Navigator still seems the official term.
That's what I'm grumbling about.

(Though I have a vague, possibly false, memory of someone telling me that MgT had switched to 'astrogator').


Hans

rancke July 30th, 2013 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447069)
I could see them sending an STL mission out to make that asteroid beacon you suggested, using some gravitic tech to make its mass appear more than it really is. Big problem w that STL mission is that if you make it go relatively fast to get there, you also have to carry fuel to make it STOP (w no grav help from any star system or planets) in the location where you want it in empty space.

That's just a question of how long it takes to get there. You accelerate until you've spent half your fuel, then coast for as long as it take, the decelerate with the other half of your fuel.

And if you're boosting an actual gravity source (i.e. an asteroid), you can jump to and from that in mid-flight, ferrying extra fuel. Though if you're boositng an ice asteroid, that wouldn't be necessary.

But yes, it's not something I'd expect governments to undertake unless they take an exceptionally long view.


Hans

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveChase (Post 447066)
Dead reckoning in empty hexes (IMO)

Jumping out of an empty hex

*snippage of suggested time and difficulty mods that look pretty reasonable at first glance *

I just noticed yiou said out of an empty hex - same mods and stuff for jumping into an empty hex, wouldn't you tink? Or maybe even more difficult jumping in w no large massive gravitic target to aim at?

sabredog July 30th, 2013 07:36 PM

IMTU jumping into an empty hex of space is pretty hazardous unless you have a Nav program that has been written to help you do that in a specific location, and those are just legends anyway along with the tales of lost pirate gold hidden in the spot you jump into.

Getting out of one is easy so long as you are targeting a gravity source, but a sequential jump into another empty space ups the difficulty even higher.


The first jump into an empty hex requires a successful navigation roll of 10+ or you randomly end up in one for the hexes around the one targeted. You are effectively managing a deliberate misjump to do this in the first place so you risk over-shooting the target by a hex, too. That could be fatal.

If you then try to jump into another empty hex from the first the roll is now 12+. This would be really, really rare but might be used to bridge wide stellar rifts and most ships would need drop tanks or pre-positioned fuel supplies. Failure on the roll has the same result as the first jump.

Beyond two empty-hex jumps....nobody has yet dare try.

DaveChase July 30th, 2013 08:20 PM

I say out of and not into because:
basically it is an empty hex (space),
sure jumping to a visible spot (star) should be easy, but if you do not have a solid starting point, how can you be sure that you are going to jump what you program into the nav system,
sure you can triangulate your location with known stars but the farther you are from them the harder it is to be accurate as time distance is in light years not kilometers,
though the Jump drive requires to be min of 100 diameters away from a gravity source, it is unknown just how accurate it is when all gravity sources are removed.

Also, I would allow the doubling of time to plot the nav to remove 1 negative DM.

So, to remove the -4 DM for 3 hex empty in any direction, it would take you a min of 4 days of plotting to hopefully end up where you planned when you come out of that Jump.

Dave Chase

sabredog July 30th, 2013 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveChase (Post 447084)
I say out of and not into because:
basically it is an empty hex (space),
sure jumping to a visible spot (star) should be easy, but if you do not have a solid starting point, how can you be sure that you are going to jump what you program into the nav system,
sure you can triangulate your location with known stars but the farther you are from them the harder it is to be accurate as time distance is in light years not kilometers,

The same way seafarers have used the stars to navigate by even though they are light years away? The distance of the stars shouldn't matter - relative to your position and time they are still going to be fixed points. At least fixed enough to make a dead reckoning to navigate by, especially given the variables in drop out position you'll have when your ship comes out of jump - it's not like a navigator will be realistically able to plot you onto a dime.

sabredog July 30th, 2013 09:04 PM

Hokay....I just reread the jumpspace article Miller wrote in JTAS 24. It covers everything from the physics of jumpspace, a jump, then equipment needed and what they do, and all the angles on what and why goes wrong jumping.

From the article I have a theory on jumping into and out of empty hexes here: that we make it really hard for no good reason other than perhaps somewhere we heard that it should be. By this article it sounds like jumping in and out of empty hexes is easier than in and out of systems since you don't have all the variables of gravity and synching orbital planes to worry about.

I think if there is a difficulty at all about non-star to star jumps it is merely in ensuring you have a place to eventually precipitate into that has fuel sources available or you'll run out of gas and die. There is nothing in the article regarding empty hex jumping or it being all that hard.

I have to admit I may have made it that way once long ago as a way to make rifts challenging to cross and thereby isolate certain areas for various reasons so only especially stalwart and daring travellers would attempt the crossing. I think sometimes "rules" generate in this game for a lot of reasons and become some sort of quasi-canon because we all argue them so often and for so long.

And the multiple versions of the game don't help - I'm assuming we are using the original CT rules, and therefore MT/MGT/Gurps/etc.. may have something else to add but may not be part of the rules we will be playing by? Or is the difficulty on jumping empty hexes a houserule as it is IMTU?

DaveChase July 30th, 2013 09:38 PM

IMTU, Jumping into and out of empty hexes is not the problem, it is the fueling issue

I made the above suggestions on the assumption that he wanted it to be a bit harder.

As for comparing it to seafaring of old and Jumping of Traveller, on the wooden ships, you could check daily (nightly) for the position of the stars and the sun and such.

Once you Jump, you are stuck for 7 days on a hope and a prayer.

So, yes, I think it would take a bit longer (time prep) to make sure you are correct on your charting and plotting.

Dave Chase

sabredog July 30th, 2013 09:52 PM

Ah, I misread it. My painkillers must be kicking in.

Sorry about that.

atpollard July 30th, 2013 10:42 PM

Personally, I like to be able to jump to/from an empty hex ... it doesn't bother me as a concept.

BUT, if you want to make it more dangerous, then just treat jumping from an empty hex exactly the same as jumping from the 10 to 100 diameter 'possible but dangerous' range. "Jump navigation requires micro-gravity for optimal precision ... no local gravity is as disorienting as too much local gravity".

samuelvss July 30th, 2013 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 447100)
Personally, I like to be able to jump to/from an empty hex ... it doesn't bother me as a concept.

BUT, if you want to make it more dangerous, then just treat jumping from an empty hex exactly the same as jumping from the 10 to 100 diameter 'possible but dangerous' range. "Jump navigation requires micro-gravity for optimal precision ... no local gravity is as disorienting as too much local gravity".

IMTU, I have it as just a +1 chance of mis-jump jumping INTO an "empty" hex, -(Navigator/2), rounded down. Jumping "out" is less dangerous, but may make navigation into the next system harder by way of precision; you'll get there, but you may be maneuvering longer than expected.

rancke July 31st, 2013 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabredog (Post 447093)
Hokay....I just reread the jumpspace article Miller wrote in JTAS 24. It covers everything from the physics of jumpspace, a jump, then equipment needed and what they do, and all the angles on what and why goes wrong jumping.

From the article I have a theory on jumping into and out of empty hexes here: that we make it really hard for no good reason other than perhaps somewhere we heard that it should be. By this article it sounds like jumping in and out of empty hexes is easier than in and out of systems since you don't have all the variables of gravity and synching orbital planes to worry about.

The article describes jumping in the Classic Era; after the problem with deep space jumps has been solved. Which took place around the year 200 (or possibly a bit earlier).


Hans

Fritz_Brown July 31st, 2013 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447056)
Yes, jumps to deep space hexes where there is no star system are still possible, but I think we need to make them more hazardous in some way, so they are not something casually done without great need.

I've always said that empty hex jumps don't work at all - if there's nothing there to precipitate you out of jump, then you just don't. What happens from there is a bit of a mystery.*

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447056)
I am thinking it could be a Navigation problem, that without a high gravity well to aim at (such as a star system) there is a greater chance of misjump - preferably not always fatal, but maybe very inconvenient.

If you really want to do it, then it *is* a Navigation problem: one that can only be done by a master Navigator. It would be calculating a jump to the intersection of several gravity wells - you would have to calculate out to an obscene decimal place the gravities encountered from each star at such a distance. Which pretty much makes it impossible for all but a tiny few (including those who just have a gift, and those who have the time to let a planet's worth of Cray's crunch the numbers). You think pi to 1.24 trillion digits is tough? This is tougher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
I used to have this notion of the Vilani overcoming the problem of only having jump-1 by strapping maneuver drives to an asteroid, boosting into the void for several decades, then decelerating for an equal amount of time and winding up with a jump anchor only a couple of generations after the projects was undertaken -- something the First Imperium was perfectly likely to undertake, but which other star nations might be less inclined to attempt. Alas, the reference is to objects of planetary size, far beyond anyone's ability to move.

Very Vilani, indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447068)
Yeah, I prefer Astrogator myself and use it in my own chargen stuff, b ut Navigator still seems the official term.

Me, too, but CT makes them the same, saying it has to do with the ability to navigate by the stars. (Simplicity, indeed!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447068)
After all, there were still many tech adbances during the so-called Dark Ages in Europe in our own history.

Not sure what you would call "tech advances". Most of them were merely 'catching up'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabredog (Post 447079)
and those are just legends anyway along with the tales of lost pirate gold hidden in the spot you jump into.

And, oddly enough, always arrive in an email from someone in a place called "Nigeria".

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabredog (Post 447091)
At least fixed enough to make a dead reckoning to navigate by, especially given the variables in drop out position you'll have when your ship comes out of jump - it's not like a navigator will be realistically able to plot you onto a dime.

But, a good jump program and navigator should be able to put you onto a dime. At least, in a normal situation. When you add in the time variable, you might have a real problem knowing your position: how do you know that your chronometer is correct? You would normally synch it with the location of the star and planets where you arrive, and be confident that your jump really was 168 hours (minus 10 minutes, 12 seconds). You can assume, but that's going to make no one comfortable (except the sorts of people who die when they try this stuff - they're the sorts who say "Can't be done? Here, hold my beer and watch this!") with the answer.

Now, if you had a unique conjunction to which you could jump, and be certain of your position and your timing, then you could do your jump-out calculation. That would be where only the most intrepid could put down an "empty hex" jump destination.

* EDIT: Obviously, I'm not averse to other concepts, or I wouldn't have kept pouring forth my unfounded opinions

SpaceBadger July 31st, 2013 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 447155)
I've always said that empty hex jumps don't work at all - if there's nothing there to precipitate you out of jump, then you just don't. What happens from there is a bit of a mystery.*

But not allowing it at all causes problems with many events in canon, if you are trying to follow the OTU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 447155)
If you really want to do it, then it *is* a Navigation problem: one that can only be done by a master Navigator. It would be calculating a jump to the intersection of several gravity wells - you would have to calculate out to an obscene decimal place the gravities encountered from each star at such a distance. Which pretty much makes it impossible for all but a tiny few (including those who just have a gift, and those who have the time to let a planet's worth of Cray's crunch the numbers). You think pi to 1.24 trillion digits is tough? This is tougher.

Then it's a Good Thing that the Fortunate Son will soon be encountering an Expert Navigator at its next stop to fill out the Bridge crew! :D

rancke July 31st, 2013 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447159)
But not allowing it at all causes problems with many events in canon, if you are trying to follow the OTU.

What problems? I can't think of any canon event that cannot be explained in other ways. OTOH, it causes problems with the history of the first Interstellar Wars if you do allow it.

Allowing it seems to offer more interesting options for game playing, but it sure is contrary to OTU canon.


Hans

SpaceBadger July 31st, 2013 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447163)
What problems? I can't think of any canon event that cannot be explained in other ways.

The travels of the March Harrier in The Traveller Adventure immediately spring to mind. They were explicitly using their added internal tankage to cross J-2 gaps by making two J-1 jumps. They even had one rendezvous in an empty hex, IIRC. I'm pretty sure I have seen other references, but not recalling them right now.

rancke July 31st, 2013 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447172)
The travels of the March Harrier in The Traveller Adventure immediately spring to mind. They were explicitly using their added internal tankage to cross J-2 gaps by making two J-1 jumps. They even had one rendezvous in an empty hex, IIRC. I'm pretty sure I have seen other references, but not recalling them right now.

The Traveller Adventure takes place 900 years after the techniques for deep space jumps were worked out. The ability to do deep space jumps in 1105 is not contradictory with an inability to do deep space jumps before ca. 200.


Hans

whulorigan July 31st, 2013 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447108)
The article describes jumping in the Classic Era; after the problem with deep space jumps has been solved. Which took place around the year 200 (or possibly a bit earlier).


Hans

I know that Jumping into Empty Hexes was impossible in the Interstellar Wars Era, but where is the year ~200 date found for the resolution of the problem?

SpaceBadger July 31st, 2013 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447175)
The Traveller Adventure takes place 900 years after the techniques for deep space jumps were worked out. The ability to do deep space jumps in 1105 is not contradictory with an inability to do deep space jumps before ca. 200.

Hans, I think we are going in circles here. I am pretty sure that either in this thread or another one, you already told me that the technique wasn't worked out until ca 200 Imperial, and I responded that such would then be a minor difference in my campaign. Or was that drop tanks we were talking about?


EDIT: Actually, I don't think we are in as much disagreement as it may appear, at least on the "jump to empty hex" issue. Obviously if it can be done after year 200 Imperial due to an advance in jump technique, then it must have been possible before that (as no particular advance in Jump technology or TL was required), but extremely difficult, until someone worked out the proper technique.

And that works just fine for me, having it be possible but extremely difficult, with positive modifiers if someone else has already blazed the trail, recorded necessary data to help plot the jump, and possibly left behind a gravitic beacon. I'd really prefer not to have ships easily ignoring gaps of three or four parsecs or more because they can do multiple jumps.

EDIT 2: Anyway, if you look back at the chain of this particular bit of conversation, it was Fritz saying that he did not allow jumps to empty hexes at all, to which I replied that would break OTU, to which you asked for example, to which I replied with TTA. Which is part of the OTU, and therefore would be broken if jumps to empty hexes were not allowed at all. :)

rancke July 31st, 2013 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whulorigan (Post 447177)
I know that Jumping into Empty Hexes was impossible in the Interstellar Wars Era, but where is the year ~200 date found for the resolution of the problem?

I'm hazy on the details, but in the boardgame Dark Nebula, which is set around that time, the players can invent a way to move between the stars that Chris Thrash suggested was the equivalent of deep space jumps. You'll have to get the details from someone who has the game.

Incidentally, I don't think that the event has been mentioned anywhere in canon, so there may be some wiggle room there. Personally, I'd much prefer that the date were put somewhere before -1044, the date that the first Aslans crossed the Great Rift.


Hans

SpaceBadger July 31st, 2013 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447179)
Personally, I'd much prefer that the date were put somewhere before -1044, the date that the first Aslans crossed the Great Rift.

Either some Aslan worked out the necessary technique 1244 years before it became common knowledge, or else they sent STL missions ahead to set up gravitic beacons to improve their chances, as we discussed earlier that the Vilani might have done.

rancke August 1st, 2013 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447180)
Either some Aslan worked out the necessary technique 1244 years before it became common knowledge, or else they sent STL missions ahead to set up gravitic beacons to improve their chances, as we discussed earlier that the Vilani might have done.

Traveller timespans are notoriously implausibly long. It has been proposed that dividing them by 5 would be a lot more plausible. So assuming that things often go a lot slower than we would espect, I don't see any problem with a clan in Riftspan Reaches keeping a technique like that secret for as long as they possibly could. Then, when a neighboring clan found out, it likewise kept it secret as long as it could, and so on and so forth.

That way the technique remains a secret for a long long time and only becomes general knowledge many years later.


Hans

samuelvss August 1st, 2013 12:28 AM

When we talk about jumping into "empty hexes," we are confusing things. We are looking at places without a star system; they are far from empty, with brown dwarves, rough planets, etc.

The challenge is, IMTU, to have a good survey of the other junk. One of the jobs of the IISS in the Classic era.

SpaceBadger August 1st, 2013 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelvss (Post 447183)
When we talk about jumping into "empty hexes," we are confusing things. We are looking at places without a star system; they are far from empty, with brown dwarves, rough planets, etc.

The challenge is, IMTU, to have a good survey of the other junk. One of the jobs of the IISS in the Classic era.

True - and with Very Large Arrays of telescopes or other sensors networked together, spotting that stuff should be possible without actually going out there to look around - but I think the OTU is already established to have a lot fewer brown dwarfs, rogues, etc, than we do in the Real World.

SpaceBadger August 1st, 2013 12:44 AM

Many thanks to tjoneslo for the new Campaign/Referee functionality at the Traveller Wiki!

Here is the link to the Main Wiki Page for our [SBRD] Reavers' Deep campaign. So far I have only made a few test stubs as I familiarize myself w how it works, but I would appreciate any help in testing the stubs to make sure I have the player and referee parts separated correctly.

Fritz_Brown August 1st, 2013 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447182)
That way the technique remains a secret for a long long time and only becomes general knowledge many years later.

And, the same would be true of a lot of humans who work out the technique, too. :smirk:

Fritz_Brown August 1st, 2013 01:09 AM

I can get to the Referee's Index. It might be because I'm a moderator.

SpaceBadger August 1st, 2013 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 447190)
I can get to the Referee's Index. It might be because I'm a moderator.

Hmm. Only tjoneslo and aramis are listed as Mods on the Wiki... :oo:

Dunno, I'll check with him and see if that could be it.

Can somebody else test it, who is not a Mod for either CotI or the Wiki?

Thanks for testing, Fritz! :)

rancke August 1st, 2013 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 447188)
And, the same would be true of a lot of humans who work out the technique, too. :smirk:

Possibly, but I don't think so. Humans have never been very good at keeping technological developments secret.


Hans

rancke August 1st, 2013 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447184)
True - and with Very Large Arrays of telescopes or other sensors networked together, spotting that stuff should be possible without actually going out there to look around - but I think the OTU is already established to have a lot fewer brown dwarfs, rogues, etc, than we do in the Real World.

Yes and no. I don't think it has actually been stated outright that such is the case, but it's a logical deduction from the fact that jumps into starless hexes were ever a problem and still is a problem in the classic era when crossing rifts are concerned.


Hans

Fritz_Brown August 1st, 2013 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447197)
Possibly, but I don't think so. Humans have never been very good at keeping technological developments secret.


Hans

Only if there's more than one person who knows how to do it involved. :)

tjoneslo August 1st, 2013 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447191)
Hmm. Only tjoneslo and aramis are listed as Mods on the Wiki... :oo:

Dunno, I'll check with him and see if that could be it.

Can somebody else test it, who is not a Mod for either CotI or the Wiki?

Thanks for testing, Fritz! :)

The issue is I've not set up the Referee only viewing/editing for the Referee namespace yet, it is a little more involved than I originally thought. So everyone can currently read those pages. If they know they exist.

samuelvss August 1st, 2013 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447184)
True - ....- but I think the OTU is already established to have a lot fewer brown dwarfs, rogues, etc, than we do in the Real World.

But we have already departed significantly from the OTU. At any rate, they are out there. Getting an accurate enough read for navigational purposes from light years away may be quite a challenge. You are, however, in the process of writing the rules to YTU.

SpaceBadger August 1st, 2013 11:09 AM

Have any PCs other than ErianFrost's Kalos Thar received the Traveller's Aid Society membership as a mustering out benefit? If so, we need to discuss that.

It just occurred to me that the TAS probably does not exist in our setting. I haven't been able to find any reference on the date of founding of TAS, but it seems to me that it should be after the founding of the 3I, as it relies on the network of A and B-class starports for its network of aid facilities, and also on interstellar trade and communication.

(Besides, if TAS existed during the Long Night, it would be the only such organization spanning all of human space, and would probably be the de-facto government! :cool: )

So let's talk about what might be a suitable substitute. I thought of a Spacer's Guild, but then there is no reason why all spacers should not be members. Maybe some sort of honorary society that may provide contacts at some starports, although probably not every starport, and not as organized or providing the hostels that TAS provides. That is kind of a weak benefit, so I am looking for reasonable suggestions as to what else it might provide in lieu of the traditional TAS benefits.

SpaceBadger August 1st, 2013 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelvss (Post 447223)
But we have already departed significantly from the OTU. At any rate, they are out there. Getting an accurate enough read for navigational purposes from light years away may be quite a challenge. You are, however, in the process of writing the rules to YTU.

I am trying to stick pretty close to the OTU up to the point the game begins, after which history may diverge.

The only significant departures I can think of so far are the fuel-usage being halved, and allowing use of drop tanks earlier than they were invented in the OTU.

I don't think I really want to get too far from the OTU on the issue of "empty hex" jumps. They are possible, but extremely hazardous as the procedures that will be worked out some time in the future do not exist yet. Locating a brown dwarf or something that can act to precipitate the ship out of jump space will help, but still does not make it easy, or something to be done regularly. (This may be one of the reasons for difficulty of survival in Scouts!)

There are some places where major projects (by governments, megacorps, or Aslan clans) have placed gravitic beacons to assist in such jumps, but these are generally kept secret by the organizations involved. Finding such a path, if previously unknown, could be worth a lot. ;)

samuelvss August 1st, 2013 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447224)
I am looking for reasonable suggestions as to what else it might provide in lieu of the traditional TAS benefits.

Another roll on the table! I wouldn't spend a microerg trying to figure out a substitute.

DaveChase August 1st, 2013 04:49 PM

If no TAS then I will take the same number roll on the cash table if that is OK

I was wondering in the back of my mind about TAS when you set the date of the game

Fritz_Brown August 1st, 2013 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447224)
So let's talk about what might be a suitable substitute. I thought of a Spacer's Guild, but then there is no reason why all spacers should not be members. Maybe some sort of honorary society that may provide contacts at some starports, although probably not every starport, and not as organized or providing the hostels that TAS provides. That is kind of a weak benefit, so I am looking for reasonable suggestions as to what else it might provide in lieu of the traditional TAS benefits.

How about a patron? Someone on whose name/reputation they might be able to draw very occasionally?


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