Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   [SBRD] Prep: setting discussion (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30664)

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
Any low-jump ship can have the ability to do two jumps, even with standard fuel usage (10% per jump number) and without drop tanks. Demountable and collapsible tanks allow a ship to carry fuel for more jumps along. I think it's possible to design a jump-1 ship that can do 7 jumps between refuelling.

And that is perfectly OK w me, as it requires special planning and effort, or specially designed ships, to cross those significant gaps. It isn't just a routine thing.


*snip GT: Interstellar Wars quotes*

Thanks, I forgot about that. I think I prefer that jumping to/from "empty" hexes be very difficult, not impossible - elsewise how did the Vilani w J-1 ever get far from Vland? Do we have any canon on when the Vilani got J-2?

And as Dave Chase noted above, your chances of making successful jumps into such "empty" hexes can be dramatically improved by factors such as a gravitic beacon or detailed notes about the route - sorry, Dave, my head is not good for analyzing numbers right now, will look at your suggestions again later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
[*] Astrogators! They guide starships between the stars, not surface ships across ponds! <mumble, mumble, grumble>

Yeah, I prefer Astrogator myself and use it in my own chargen stuff, b ut Navigator still seems the official term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
The astrogational invention that allowed deep space jumps was invented some time during the period covered by the Dark Nebula game, somewhere around 200 (I think -- I don't have the game myself).

As I sadi above, I think it must have been possible before this, but perhaps very hazardous. Maybe someone on one of th emore advanced worlds in Daibei sector (TL 11, maybe even 12, during Long Night) figured this out earlier in my campaign, to make it a little less hazardous. After all, there were still many tech adbances during the so-called Dark Ages in Europe in our own history.

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 447067)
Jump? Not fly by STL?

I used to have this notion of the Vilani overcoming the problem of only having jump-1 by strapping maneuver drives to an asteroid, boosting into the void for several decades, then decellerating for an equal amount of time and winding up with a jump anchor only a couple of generations after the projects was undertaken -- something the First Imperium was perfectly likely to undertake, but which other star nations might be less inclined to attempt. Alas, the reference is to objects of planetary size, far beyond anyone's ability to move.

Thanks, Hans, somehow I missed this bit on first reading. Too quick to hit Reply.

I don't know of much canon on early Vilani tech advances w- will have to look at that I guess as I am planning Vilani colonization of Reavers' Deep and Daibei. Does gravitic tech always go hand in hand with Jump tech? I wonder when the Vilani got J-2?

I could see them sending an STL mission out to make that asteroid beacon you suggested, using some gravitic tech to make its mass appear more than it really is. Big problem w that STL mission is that if yiou make it go relatively fast to get there, you also have to carry fuel to make it STOP (w no grav help from any star system or planets) in the location where you want it in emplty space.

rancke July 30th, 2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447068)
Thanks, I forgot about that. I think I prefer that jumping to/from "empty" hexes be very difficult, not impossible - elsewise how did the Vilani w J-1 ever get far from Vland?

One possible explanation is that they searched and searched and searched and eventually found some naturally occurring anchors to connect the mains. Another is that they crossed the gaps using SLT. The Imperium game allows ship to move one hex (half a light-year) per year. 7 years to cross a gap is an impediment that can be surmounted given sufficient motivation.

Quote:

Do we have any canon on when the Vilani got J-2?
In -5430.

Quote:

Yeah, I prefer Astrogator myself and use it in my own chargen stuff, but Navigator still seems the official term.
That's what I'm grumbling about.

(Though I have a vague, possibly false, memory of someone telling me that MgT had switched to 'astrogator').


Hans

rancke July 30th, 2013 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 447069)
I could see them sending an STL mission out to make that asteroid beacon you suggested, using some gravitic tech to make its mass appear more than it really is. Big problem w that STL mission is that if you make it go relatively fast to get there, you also have to carry fuel to make it STOP (w no grav help from any star system or planets) in the location where you want it in empty space.

That's just a question of how long it takes to get there. You accelerate until you've spent half your fuel, then coast for as long as it take, the decelerate with the other half of your fuel.

And if you're boosting an actual gravity source (i.e. an asteroid), you can jump to and from that in mid-flight, ferrying extra fuel. Though if you're boositng an ice asteroid, that wouldn't be necessary.

But yes, it's not something I'd expect governments to undertake unless they take an exceptionally long view.


Hans

SpaceBadger July 30th, 2013 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveChase (Post 447066)
Dead reckoning in empty hexes (IMO)

Jumping out of an empty hex

*snippage of suggested time and difficulty mods that look pretty reasonable at first glance *

I just noticed yiou said out of an empty hex - same mods and stuff for jumping into an empty hex, wouldn't you tink? Or maybe even more difficult jumping in w no large massive gravitic target to aim at?

sabredog July 30th, 2013 07:36 PM

IMTU jumping into an empty hex of space is pretty hazardous unless you have a Nav program that has been written to help you do that in a specific location, and those are just legends anyway along with the tales of lost pirate gold hidden in the spot you jump into.

Getting out of one is easy so long as you are targeting a gravity source, but a sequential jump into another empty space ups the difficulty even higher.


The first jump into an empty hex requires a successful navigation roll of 10+ or you randomly end up in one for the hexes around the one targeted. You are effectively managing a deliberate misjump to do this in the first place so you risk over-shooting the target by a hex, too. That could be fatal.

If you then try to jump into another empty hex from the first the roll is now 12+. This would be really, really rare but might be used to bridge wide stellar rifts and most ships would need drop tanks or pre-positioned fuel supplies. Failure on the roll has the same result as the first jump.

Beyond two empty-hex jumps....nobody has yet dare try.

DaveChase July 30th, 2013 08:20 PM

I say out of and not into because:
basically it is an empty hex (space),
sure jumping to a visible spot (star) should be easy, but if you do not have a solid starting point, how can you be sure that you are going to jump what you program into the nav system,
sure you can triangulate your location with known stars but the farther you are from them the harder it is to be accurate as time distance is in light years not kilometers,
though the Jump drive requires to be min of 100 diameters away from a gravity source, it is unknown just how accurate it is when all gravity sources are removed.

Also, I would allow the doubling of time to plot the nav to remove 1 negative DM.

So, to remove the -4 DM for 3 hex empty in any direction, it would take you a min of 4 days of plotting to hopefully end up where you planned when you come out of that Jump.

Dave Chase

sabredog July 30th, 2013 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveChase (Post 447084)
I say out of and not into because:
basically it is an empty hex (space),
sure jumping to a visible spot (star) should be easy, but if you do not have a solid starting point, how can you be sure that you are going to jump what you program into the nav system,
sure you can triangulate your location with known stars but the farther you are from them the harder it is to be accurate as time distance is in light years not kilometers,

The same way seafarers have used the stars to navigate by even though they are light years away? The distance of the stars shouldn't matter - relative to your position and time they are still going to be fixed points. At least fixed enough to make a dead reckoning to navigate by, especially given the variables in drop out position you'll have when your ship comes out of jump - it's not like a navigator will be realistically able to plot you onto a dime.

sabredog July 30th, 2013 09:04 PM

Hokay....I just reread the jumpspace article Miller wrote in JTAS 24. It covers everything from the physics of jumpspace, a jump, then equipment needed and what they do, and all the angles on what and why goes wrong jumping.

From the article I have a theory on jumping into and out of empty hexes here: that we make it really hard for no good reason other than perhaps somewhere we heard that it should be. By this article it sounds like jumping in and out of empty hexes is easier than in and out of systems since you don't have all the variables of gravity and synching orbital planes to worry about.

I think if there is a difficulty at all about non-star to star jumps it is merely in ensuring you have a place to eventually precipitate into that has fuel sources available or you'll run out of gas and die. There is nothing in the article regarding empty hex jumping or it being all that hard.

I have to admit I may have made it that way once long ago as a way to make rifts challenging to cross and thereby isolate certain areas for various reasons so only especially stalwart and daring travellers would attempt the crossing. I think sometimes "rules" generate in this game for a lot of reasons and become some sort of quasi-canon because we all argue them so often and for so long.

And the multiple versions of the game don't help - I'm assuming we are using the original CT rules, and therefore MT/MGT/Gurps/etc.. may have something else to add but may not be part of the rules we will be playing by? Or is the difficulty on jumping empty hexes a houserule as it is IMTU?

DaveChase July 30th, 2013 09:38 PM

IMTU, Jumping into and out of empty hexes is not the problem, it is the fueling issue

I made the above suggestions on the assumption that he wanted it to be a bit harder.

As for comparing it to seafaring of old and Jumping of Traveller, on the wooden ships, you could check daily (nightly) for the position of the stars and the sun and such.

Once you Jump, you are stuck for 7 days on a hope and a prayer.

So, yes, I think it would take a bit longer (time prep) to make sure you are correct on your charting and plotting.

Dave Chase


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