Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   How long can you live on anagathics ? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=40602)

CaptRet November 10th, 2019 06:02 PM

How long can you live on anagathics ?
 
Up to what age do anagathics prolong one's life ?

G. Kashkanun Anderson November 10th, 2019 09:15 PM

In CT, at least, indefinitely. Or at least as long as you can score a fix.

The catch is that:
  • It is a monthly regimen that must be maintained in order to work,
  • Individual doses are hugely expensive -- roughly the equivalent to at least a year's salary for a typical (NPC) Imperial citizen,
  • The minimum tech level of a world you'll find any on, barring extraordinary circumstances, is 15,
  • Even at that tech level, it's kind of a crap shoot to source (10+ on 2d6 per world), and
  • That's assuming it's even legal there to begin with.
That said, there is at least one reference to a character who uses anagathics in a canonical adventure, even though it is clearly beyond his financial means and he is living on a world where it should be next to impossible to score a reliable supply. This is a significant plot point in that adventure, obviously.

GypsyComet November 11th, 2019 12:17 AM

TNE introduces the idea of genetic damage over time, but I could see that as being a side effect of the times. Safe anagathics are a high tech product, and TNE is no longer really high tech.

The implication is that prior editions did not have such worries, so "as long as you can afford it".

timerover51 November 11th, 2019 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptRet (Post 608353)
Up to what age do anagathics prolong one's life ?

I am more apt to ask "How long before your ambitious young heirs wait before taking action to get their inheritance?"

Also, how does society deal with a small group that does not die, while the vast majority of the members of the society do die? Somehow, I do not see that as a stable situation.

Grav_Moped November 11th, 2019 04:31 AM

It's not the ambitious young heirs they need to worry about, it's the law students.

As if the rule against perpetuities wasn't already enough of a clusterthingy...

kilemall November 11th, 2019 09:48 AM

Good summations on the rules lawyering part, we could go into specifics as we primitive TL8 types understand (telomere mitigation won't fix eventual bone and tissue damage so probably healing/refreshing tissue tech in there too).


But the real question is, what sort of universe do you want?

Anagathics is a Big Thing in several scifi universes, to an extent with Melange, the movie Jupiter Ascending and of course Stroon in the Cordwainer Smith universe. In all three the extension of life is the Ultimate Commodity and shapes their economies and societies.

So I would say that it is a major element to consider in building your universe, and you should be deciding on the specifics based on the desired gameplay and milieu feel.




Oh, and we discussed this before but I'll bring it up again, what sort of a world is it when George Washington and Queen Victoria are still alive and affecting events now? Incredible people with several skill-10s, or societal stagnation as the best of the past 300 years crowd out new people and ideas, or as suggested revolt against same?

CaptRet November 11th, 2019 10:43 AM

Well, if theoretically one could live forever on anagathics, then there would presumably be nothing short of violent death or accident the would preclude an "immortal" Emperor/Empress. Instead, I would think it likely that there would be some limit at which cells would no longer reproduce themselves correctly (like making a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, ad infinitum; those telomeres are only so long). We currently have a great increase in nonogenerians in the US, so I'm thinking that anagathics would work to keep one youthful and prolong life to some sort of limit, perhaps 150 or so (with a sudden breakdown into senescence right before the end).

Also, I think that having an aging crisis in Traveller character generation at the 38 yrs. mark is probably too early in a futuristic setting (and was based on acturial and physical information of the 1980's, when Traveller began). With improved science, diet, drugs, etc. probably wouldn't hit the same mark till folks were in their 40's. (Of course, people at the bottom of society and from lower tech environments probably wouldn't benefit from these advances, and would age more in line with the original game mechanics).

mike wightman November 11th, 2019 12:44 PM

T5 gives us more life extending technologies to play with in the OTU than anagathics.

That said what is written in the majority of Traveller rules must be interpreted for the setting.

If you are filthy rich - megacorp regional director, subsector duke, privately wealthy Scrooge McDuck - you don't need to go looking for anagathics, you send hirelings (PCs cough cough) to source them and bring back what you need to last a decade, century whatever.

robject November 11th, 2019 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 608387)
... what is written in the majority of Traveller rules must be interpreted for the setting.

If you are filthy rich - megacorp regional director, subsector duke, privately wealthy Scrooge McDuck - you don't need to go looking for anagathics, you send hirelings (PCs cough cough) to source them and bring back what you need to last a decade, century whatever.

That's the way to do it. Anagathics are plot hooks on a platter.

Even the question of "how long do anagathics work?" is more than one plot hook, because adventures could surround the very question.

flykiller November 11th, 2019 04:33 PM

Quote:

how does society deal with a small group that does not die, while the vast majority of the members of the society do die? Somehow, I do not see that as a stable situation.
heh. the last thousand years of terran history suggest that we just might be dealing with that or something very similar to that right here right now ....

Tiikeri November 11th, 2019 04:40 PM

Altered Carbon addresses this, as does Eclipse Phase. Once someone can afford immortality, they go on getting richer and more powerful indefinitely. Compound interest for the win. These immortal oligarchs have an immense influence on societies.

So anagathics.

Traveller doesnt explain how they work, only that they do. So arbitrarily pick what fits what you want, and say well it just does.

Rationalizations and narrative justifications.

Something like, wull, anagathics prevent telomere loss, or stimulate mitochondria function, or whatever, but the human body is such a complex system that this has unbalancing side effects to the point where the body cant take it anymore, and people feel tired, go sleep, and pass away for no discernable reason.

Or

200 years of life with toxin buildup, junk food, stress damage, artilage stress, nutrition deficiencies, radiation exposure, statistical cancer risks, diseases, genetic defects expressing themselves, eventually peoples bodies cant take it anymore. Suicide could be another issue, like a noble with dementia wasting away in an asylum, but lingering on for decades.

whartung November 12th, 2019 11:55 AM

If the anagathics are not illegal, but simply expensive, I don't know why those who would use and afford them would not relocate to where they are readily available.

Sure, there could be smuggling of them to interdicted areas, but that continues to suggest that they're available somewhere. They're not (I assume) being cooked up in bathtubs in an RV out in the desert.

mike wightman November 12th, 2019 02:10 PM

What if anagathics are made the way they are in Jupiter Ascending...

wbuthod November 12th, 2019 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 608441)
What if anagathics are made the way they are in Jupiter Ascending...

... or as in the Babylon 5 episode, "Deathwalker".

(tangential note: I want to incorporate the Dilgar into an ATU so very much.)

CaptRet November 12th, 2019 07:29 PM

In the Mongoose Traveller, Third Imperium Deneb Sector it notes an Imperial prohibition against nobles using anagathics. It isn't explained, but I'm sure that has to do with the destabilizing effects of such an individual accumulating wealth and power purely via extreme longevity.

timerover51 November 12th, 2019 07:40 PM

I figure that someone using anagathics will live only as long as it takes for an assassin to get to him or her.

GypsyComet November 12th, 2019 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptRet (Post 608450)
In the Mongoose Traveller, Third Imperium Deneb Sector it notes an Imperial prohibition against nobles using anagathics. It isn't explained, but I'm sure that has to do with the destabilizing effects of such an individual accumulating wealth and power purely via extreme longevity.

That isn't the first cite, though I don't recall at the moment where that would be. IIRC it has to do with both a stated desire to keep the titles in motion and with a cautionary event early on in the Third Imperium. Those of Noble family are welcome to partake of anagathics as long as they do not also hold an Imperial Office, thus encouraging those who want to use their power to live forever to hand the reins to the next generation and retire.

Nathan Brazil November 13th, 2019 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyComet (Post 608365)
TNE introduces the idea of genetic damage over time, but I could see that as being a side effect of the times. Safe anagathics are a high tech product, and TNE is no longer really high tech.

The implication is that prior editions did not have such worries, so "as long as you can afford it".

Anagathics work differently in TNE as does normal aging. There are interesting side-effects :devil:

1,Aging starts in different terms for different stats. AGL at Term 4, STR, END and INT terms 6, 8, and 12 respectvely. Roll d15 (d20, reroll 16-20s, hey i didnt make the rules!) If you roll higher than your stat, no aging! Equal or under, lose 1 point. Thats it. You can have really old people.

2. All anagathics does is keep you from having to make 2 rolls. Sounds Groovy. Ill just rotate which 2 are immune, each term. This is permitted.

HOWEVER :smirk:
after 15 full terms of use you start roll for side effects which include up to and including psychopathic behavior (NPC land!). Since there are cumulative DMs in this roll, even rolling the minimum every single time you become a psychopath after 92 years (23 terms) of use.

You could try Anagath-B (Bearers of the Flame, p 16) which does not have those side effects, but has a different one. Every time you experience entering jump-space roll a D100. If you roll less than or equal to the years you have taken it, you immediately die.

Hmm. So you can live hard. die young, and leave a beautiful corpse
:coffeesip:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

CaptRet November 13th, 2019 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyComet (Post 608454)
That isn't the first cite, though I don't recall at the moment where that would be. IIRC it has to do with both a stated desire to keep the titles in motion and with a cautionary event early on in the Third Imperium. Those of Noble family are welcome to partake of anagathics as long as they do not also hold an Imperial Office, thus encouraging those who want to use their power to live forever to hand the reins to the next generation and retire.

Thanks GypsyComet - there may be earlier citations (was the first I could find). Actually, reread the citation and it is an "Imperial custom" vice a law. That said, it certainly makes good sense to ensure that the Imperium power structure doesn't ossify (or lead to violent coups).

Thot November 13th, 2019 12:47 PM

What if all the peacefully replaced emperors are still alive, and only decided to abdicate after a certain time, living in cognito on some distant moon?

Nothing speaks against people taking anagathics forever, and hence living forever. Moreover, real-life biology is beginning to reveal that it may actually be relatively easy to rejuvenate people - we proto-Solomani haven't quite figured it out yet, but we seem to be close.

That implies that immortal oligarchs (or in the OTU, nobles) should be expected to run everything, unless firm legal limitations against that are in place. But why would they, when the state is a feudal oligarchy anyway?

Tiikeri November 13th, 2019 03:49 PM

The whole issue seems like it has a big passel of game balance artificialities stuck on to it. Like you can have this cool thing, but oh you cant have it because its expensive or its illegal or its too high tech or assassins or public opinion or some other rationalization for preventing a game unbalancing item from falling into the clutches of player characters. Or for preventing profound changes to the setting, like well of course the emperor, the nobility, the megacorp ceos are immortal, thats the point of getting rich.

The trouble is the rationalizations are only obstacles to overcome, and player characters are very good at overcoming obstacles.

Its illegal: bah, we're player characters. We dont care a civet for your laws.
Its expensive: double bah, were player characters. We sack gashikan and buy it.
Its only on a few high tech planets: we move there.
They wont let you: why not, were rich, remember?
They dont like you: we steal a shipment, analyze it and make a generic version.
But assassins: we send them back to their mountain monastery in pieces then nuke the site from orbit.
But the younger generations: dont know or care who we are, and if they raise their feeble npc hands against us, we kill them too.
But your heirs want to take over: we have never begat heirs upon any of the elf, sorry, darrian, maidens we compelled to endure our company. Just say we cant have it because of a ref fiat command instead of insulting us with these fig leaf obstacles.

If player character troglodytes can overcome obstacles with enough time and perserverance, it doesnt make sense that the most powerful people in charted space wouldnt be able to.

It has to be integrated into the setting or it shouldnt be in the setting at all.

Condottiere November 14th, 2019 02:07 PM

Mandatory retirement, and progressive taxation.

Warhammer Eldar switch professions, to prevent stagnation.

Tiikeri November 14th, 2019 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thot (Post 608469)
What if all the peacefully replaced emperors are still alive, and only decided to abdicate after a certain time, living in cognito on some distant moon?

Nothing speaks against people taking anagathics forever, and hence living forever. Moreover, real-life biology is beginning to reveal that it may actually be relatively easy to rejuvenate people - we proto-Solomani haven't quite figured it out yet, but we seem to be close.

That implies that immortal oligarchs (or in the OTU, nobles) should be expected to run everything, unless firm legal limitations against that are in place. But why would they, when the state is a feudal oligarchy anyway?


They wouldnt. The emperor would probably have a trust fund to pay for anagathics for loyal servants who get promoted to the peerage until theyre rich enough to get their own. Immortals might even be less confrontational with each other, since they know theyll be dealing with each other for a very long time.

The populace would probably support it since it would promote stable leadership, and the worlds have their own local govts anyway.

I doubt there would be generational conflicts unless the immortals enact policies which irritate oeople, like buying everything up and then price gouging people to use it. Even then it would be a conflict about economic oppression, not immortality. Even then, people could emigrate to a world with better opportunities instead of starting a war against the best funded most experienced people in charted space.

Heirs getting all mad would be a product of theur own envy and reluctance to build their own fortune.

robject November 14th, 2019 04:43 PM

Quote:

What if all the peacefully replaced emperors are still alive, and only decided to abdicate after a certain time, living in cognito on some distant moon?

[...]

That implies that immortal oligarchs (or in the OTU, nobles) should be expected to run everything, unless firm legal limitations against that are in place. But why would they, when the state is a feudal oligarchy anyway?
This could be a pretty good (and dark?) setting (but it's not the OTU).

robject November 14th, 2019 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thot
What if all the peacefully replaced emperors are still alive, and only decided to abdicate after a certain time, living in cognito on some distant moon?

[...]

That implies that immortal oligarchs (or in the OTU, nobles) should be expected to run everything, unless firm legal limitations against that are in place. But why would they, when the state is a feudal oligarchy anyway?

This could be a pretty good (and dark?) setting (but it's not the OTU).

GamingGlen November 14th, 2019 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flykiller (Post 608473)
... actually, anagathics and the resulting conflicts generated between the old and young would provide a profound motivation and basis for mercenary and corporate and "brushfire" wars ....

SPOILER?




So the Ancients' FINAL WAR was about anagathics?

robject November 14th, 2019 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GamingGlen (Post 608519)
SPOILER?




So the Ancients' FINAL WAR was about anagathics?

LOL

So the truth finally comes out.

No wonder Yaskoydray is in hiding. Everybody wants his secret formula.

flykiller November 14th, 2019 07:41 PM

Quote:

Mandatory retirement, and progressive taxation.
oh piffle. the eternal rulers would be above such rules, which would be applied only to those who threatened to rise to the level of the eternal rulers. just like all these modern real-world schemes to "tax the rich" and "break the corporate monopolies" - these are used only to tax those rich and break those corporations that are not in the club, while those that are in the club condescendingly carry on as they always have.

CaptRet November 14th, 2019 08:18 PM

If anagathics make you "immortal" (and personally I would doubt it - I think there is some limit), then you could employ the Highlander solution. Fake your own death, leaving all your property to your young relative (really yourself). Amazing how the Hapsburg lip is passed down through the generations.

GamingGlen November 14th, 2019 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptRet (Post 608529)
If anagathics make you "immortal" (and personally I would doubt it - I think there is some limit), then you could employ the Highlander solution. Fake your own death, leaving all your property to your young relative (really yourself). Amazing how the Hapsburg lip is passed down through the generations.

I think people would catch on after awhile.

CaptRet November 16th, 2019 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GamingGlen (Post 608532)
I think people would catch on after awhile.

It's a big Imperium, you could keep moving to other subsectors.

Tiikeri November 16th, 2019 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptRet (Post 608616)
It's a big Imperium, you could keep moving to other subsectors.


Doubtless that many worlds would want the money and power that an immortal would bring. Hey immortal, move here for ten years tax free operation if you start a business here.

Immortals with enough money could found a new colony world outside Imperial borders, hire colonists and some mercenaries to protect them, build a deep meson planetary defense grid, and turn the system into a neutral tax-haven and sanctuary resort.

Tiikeri November 16th, 2019 03:41 PM

Something I've always had IMTU is that the Solomani Rim War was started by the immortal Solomani Movement aristocrats banished to Sol from the Imperial court. It was their money, their power, their influence, their fleets, their armies of loyalists, and their bitter grievances against the Imperium which drove the Solomani Sphere into rebellion and drove many of the Confederation's anti-Vilani policies. They threw their medals and titles over the Imperial fence and started a militaristic government to raise their collective hand against the Emperor who unjustly banished them, and created SolSec to make sure they were never betrayed by the enemy within again.

Their pride and rage blinded them to their lack of preparedness, or perhaps social-political trends forced their hand, but in the end they got what they wanted: an Empire of their own. But at such cost, such cost.

Tiikeri November 16th, 2019 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flykiller (Post 608521)
oh piffle. the eternal rulers would be above such rules, which would be applied only to those who threatened to rise to the level of the eternal rulers. just like all these modern real-world schemes to "tax the rich" and "break the corporate monopolies" - these are used only to tax those rich and break those corporations that are not in the club, while those that are in the club condescendingly carry on as they always have.

Pretty much.

Condottiere November 17th, 2019 01:18 AM

It's a question of a more or less level playing field; heirs to an empire pretty much want to rule an empire, whether they inherit it or with the same, presumably genetic, ambitions build one up themselves; not counting social mobility to reward similarly gifted individuals to rise, and relieve the likely pressure from class conflicts.

If the ultimate ambition of a sophont is immortality, or longevity, in whatever form it takes, individually, through from offsprings, or cultural impact, knowledge of the existence of these possibilities and lack of access is going to cause resentment, and eventual revolution.

CaptRet December 1st, 2019 10:43 AM

And perhaps certain diseases/viruses could limit the effectiveness of anagathics ? Once you get "Rigellian Hepatatis" you can no longer take anagathics or, even worse yet, the cellular effects of the accumulated years come rushing back ?

BlackBat242 December 2nd, 2019 05:33 AM

I've long had multiple variants of "anti-aging medical options" available.

I include those found in the following Sci-Fi authors' universes:

Elizabeth Moon: Familias Regnant universe
Quote:

And what would happen to society if our Cult of Youth Eternal got help from Medicine, with the advent of rejuvenation drugs?
Certainly, rejuv is not the only theme but the exploration of our preoccupation with youth and the hunt for youth eternal is the main thread, and the series offers a close up examination of the consequences that follow.
The later books in the series explore the economic, social, and political ramifications of the building backlog of "heirs" with no prospect of replacing their elders for decades, if not possibly centuries (Rejuv is a relatively recent development - only around for ~40-50 years or so at the start of the series, if I remember correctly.

Rejuv is an expensive and intensive medical procedure, involving administration of multiple doses of several specialized drugs in a clinical setting over a period of time (a few months is implied).
This "resets" the body, basically rewinding it to a physical state of ~20 years old (or older, if the recipient wishes - some politicians prefer to retain a "mature" appearance, to indicate their accumulated "wisdom").
The recipient then ages normally, until the next time the individual's whim/finances see another round of Rejuv being undertaken.
It is stated that some wealthy people get Rejuv every decade or so, simply to avoid "looking old".
Unless a bad batch of drugs turns up (a significant plot-point in several of the novels) it is implied that there should be no limit to how many times one can be "Rejuved".


David Weber: Honorverse.
Prolong is the tech here - a genetic treatment done in adulthood (1st gen Prolong), and in kids (2nd-gen Prolong), that slows down your aging process, roughly doubling (if I remember correctly) your life-span after receiving the treatment. That part is important, as we see below.

1st-gen maybe gives you 50% or a bit more longer life, but all of that extra is after you are already an adult. You are "doubling" only 50%-70% of your life-span.
2nd-gen, as it starts much earlier in your development, slows your physical growth into an adult as well (mental development seems to not be slowed as much, whether this means that the mind will continue to age faster than the body is never addressed) - which means that those years are also doubled (or more than doubled, as is sometimes implied).
There were hints that it might be even more effective, in the not-yet-administered 3rd-gen (at least the books don't mention any 3rd-gen recipients, that I've run across).

Note that the "prolong generation" is referring to more than just the tech side (first-developed, refined and improved, etc) - it is also referring to whether you are the first in your immediate bloodline to receive the treatment.
With no recipients among your biological parents, you must wait until your body has stabilized in adulthood before receiving treatment.
If your parents (at least one, preferably both) received the treatment before conceiving you, then you can receive treatment before puberty!


Note that both of these are more-costly and more-involved than simply retiring to your stateroom to shoot up a batch of anagathics (usually derived from some alien plant or animal in Sci-Fi - see Stroon in Norstrilia by Cordwainer Smith) you bought on the black market.
Therefore, they remained basically plot-hooks of the theoretical kind in the games I've run, rather than being used by any PCs.

Condottiere December 2nd, 2019 05:49 AM

Depends on how you define the Fountain of Youth, physical integrity, or preservation of the spark that makes us unique, the consciousness, and the ability to transfer it to another medium or physical body.

boomslang December 29th, 2019 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robject (Post 608516)
This could be a pretty good (and dark?) setting (but it's not the OTU).

It's a non-trivial part of MTU, however.

The thing is, the older these Methusaloids get, the more risk-averse they tend to become; they only care about securing an unending supply of their fix while avoiding absolutely anything that might pose a threat to their own continued existence. Unless, of course, they become aggressively suicidal out of crushing boredom.

Which makes even the still-sane ones their own worst enemies, most times, since other Prolonged Individuals make great sources of anagathics to take control of and add to one's own pipeline. Security through redundancy.

This eventually drives any oligarchy into a winner-takes-all autocracy, and at any technologically-sophisticated tech level, such a state will become impossible to maintain by overt military, economic, or political force.

So you are are looking a deeply-buried secret society of obscenely wealthy, mutually-paranoid kingmakers who value economic stability above literally anything and everything else, and trust absolutely no one, especially their peers. Who are also extreme physical cowards to the point of making the average Hiver look like a vaping, skydiving, fugu-eating, Russian-Roulette-playing adrenaline-junkie thrillseeker.

Pretty dark, but they do make fantastic patrons...

Magnus von Thornwood December 31st, 2019 05:48 PM

Uhhhhh...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boomslang (Post 609618)
It's a non-trivial part of MTU, however.

The thing is, the older these Methusaloids get, the more risk-averse they tend to become; they only care about securing an unending supply of their fix while avoiding absolutely anything that might pose a threat to their own continued existence. Unless, of course, they become aggressively suicidal out of crushing boredom.

Which makes even the still-sane ones their own worst enemies, most times, since other Prolonged Individuals make great sources of anagathics to take control of and add to one's own pipeline. Security through redundancy.

This eventually drives any oligarchy into a winner-takes-all autocracy, and at any technologically-sophisticated tech level, such a state will become impossible to maintain by overt military, economic, or political force.

So you are are looking a deeply-buried secret society of obscenely wealthy, mutually-paranoid kingmakers who value economic stability above literally anything and everything else, and trust absolutely no one, especially their peers. Who are also extreme physical cowards to the point of making the average Hiver look like a vaping, skydiving, fugu-eating, Russian-Roulette-playing adrenaline-junkie thrillseeker.

Pretty dark, but they do make fantastic patrons...

Depends, me I read a lot of William Gibson and he's taught me they pay well and open many doors but it's like working for a capricious godling.

kilemall January 1st, 2020 01:46 PM

Why bother with expensive anagathics when wafertech and cloning, ala Altered Carbon?
Which series BTW gives you a good idea as to what an anagathic oligarchy looks like.


I liked the 2300 Equipment Guide take on anagathics, which was a treatment with months long duration.

For one 85000 Livre treatment, you would age 1D-1 months over an effective treatment period of 2D-1 months. So on average you would age 3-4 months over a 6 month period. Or you could get lucky and not age at all, or minimally age 1-2 months over 11 months. OR the treatment does no good because it doesn't slow down aging, or causes you to age faster!

Trick was that those aging/1D-1 and effective period/2D-1 rolls were PERMANENT per character. So once you knew what your ratio was like, you could decide whether to keep it up or whether it wasn't worth it.


Kind of fun mechanic if you go hardcore in CT or other forms of Traveller, could be players would want to not rack up terms and risk having to start anagathics in their 40s. That 22/28 year old 1-2 term 'underpowered character' might look better if they can start on their long life span while not having aged out.

mike wightman January 1st, 2020 05:25 PM

Because the clone isn't you...

it's a copy that thinks it is you, but you are dead.

With anagathics or other rejuvenation treatment you get continuation of existence.

Magnus von Thornwood January 2nd, 2020 12:37 AM

Grrrrrr.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 609660)
Because the clone isn't you...

it's a copy that thinks it is you, but you are dead.

With anagathics or other rejuvenation treatment you get continuation of existence.

If the supposed "copy" has all my memories and experiences then there is literally no difference and it is me. Yeesh, you people it's like you never faced the possibility that you're a clone. Must be nice. Some of us though have to face such things and after a while you realize how silly it is to wonder if you're the "real" one or the "copy". You're just you.

Grav_Moped January 2nd, 2020 01:25 AM

But then you have to wonder how many other people might also be you. (Or were you up to a specific point in time but are slightly different by now.)

mike wightman January 2nd, 2020 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnus von Thornwood (Post 609667)
If the supposed "copy" has all my memories and experiences then there is literally no difference and it is me.

No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

coliver988 January 2nd, 2020 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 609672)
No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

Pretty much - while the next you thinks it is a simple continuation, the original is now gone.

But then we can start digging into philosophy: is the you that went to sleep the same you as the one that wakes up? After all, there is a period where your consciousness is no longer active. And we do replace our cells over a few years so physically for the most part we become an entirely new person. The old "it's my grandfather's axe. The handle has been replaced a couple of times and we put a new head on it but its the same axe".

As far as the next being in line is, yes, you are the same. And to anyone else, there would be no difference. But from the personal perspective of the original, no, it is just a perfect copy.

And if we start poking into religious aspects and the soul, that discussion can get both very interesting and very divisive.

Magnus von Thornwood January 2nd, 2020 12:14 PM

Ya poor noobs.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grav_Moped (Post 609668)
But then you have to wonder how many other people might also be you. (Or were you up to a specific point in time but are slightly different by now.)

No, well not once you get over the shock that there are other versions of you. Honestly, you just stop caring after a little bit. i mean really why should I care?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 609672)
No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

No, still alive that's what bodily functions are for, keeping the meat going.

Both of us, though we'll begin to have separate memories as so as you do wake us up. Both yeah, they're both me.

Again, same memories same person. It's simple really, I don't get you people.

mike wightman January 2nd, 2020 12:29 PM

Nope - they are not both you.

You only have the continuity of existence in the original you.

The copy wakes with memories and personality but begins continuity of existence from the moment it has awoken.

This is the real horror of Eclipse Phase IMHO, the slow realisation that the digital copy isn't really 'you'.

Magnus von Thornwood January 2nd, 2020 03:06 PM

Whaaa...whaat?!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 609678)
Nope - they are not both you.

You only have the continuity of existence in the original you.

The copy wakes with memories and personality but begins continuity of existence from the moment it has awoken.

This is the real horror of Eclipse Phase IMHO, the slow realisation that the digital copy isn't really 'you'.

You care to break that down it small words and perhaps a better explanation of what you mean because from where I sit sounds like some silly metaphysical woo.

BwapTED January 3rd, 2020 10:30 AM

There's no way to discuss these questions of being, personhood, identity, consciousness, etc. without going into metaphysics. It's not 'woo.'
Magnus, you are also taking a philosophical position on what a person is, what consciousness is, etc. That involves metaphysics as much as the contrary position does.

RE why not just use wafers and clones, there's the answer: in the OTU, as in the real world (or this forum) people are not all of one mind about metaphysical questions.


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