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-   -   The Rebellion and World War One? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=11223)

Lord Iron Wolf March 19th, 2005 06:21 PM

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

Lord Iron Wolf March 19th, 2005 06:21 PM

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

Lord Iron Wolf March 19th, 2005 06:21 PM

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

kaladorn March 19th, 2005 10:27 PM

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you [img]smile.gif[/img] <no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

kaladorn March 19th, 2005 10:27 PM

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you [img]smile.gif[/img] <no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

kaladorn March 19th, 2005 10:27 PM

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you [img]smile.gif[/img] <no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

aramis March 21st, 2005 02:44 PM

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

aramis March 21st, 2005 02:44 PM

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

aramis March 21st, 2005 02:44 PM

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

kaladorn March 21st, 2005 03:14 PM

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.


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