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-   -   Cryo-Static surgery (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=25778)

Dragoner December 17th, 2011 12:48 PM

Cryo-Static surgery
 
For trauma care in particular, imagine a lowberth capsule with waldos for surgery. It would reduce blood loss, and many other hazards of surgery; I can think of some issues, such as opening an incision. Maybe the frozen part could be lifted away, or some localized thawing to work on a specific area.

mike wightman December 17th, 2011 03:00 PM

I saw a programme recently concerning medical advances learned in Afghanistan and US trauma departments.

Apparently deliberately cooling a severe trauma case can actually increase the chances of successful surgery.

So I think your idea has a lot of merit.

far-trader December 17th, 2011 03:10 PM

Cryoberth surgery perhaps. With the inherent survival risks associated with Cryoberths (aka original CT lowberth survival rates).

Stasisberth (the advanced lowberths with better survival) surgery no, imo. The stasis field would render intrusion into the field impossible.

Something to consider when choosing how to be frozen in that medical emergency perhaps.

Dragoner December 17th, 2011 03:15 PM

Ah, sorry, I was just thinking lowberth = cryo-stasis.

Hmmm, something to think of rules for and maybe even a diagram...

McPerth December 17th, 2011 04:13 PM

It seems te me an interesting idea to tink about...

I guess the waldos you talk about would be more or less a high tech version of the robotic surgery used today (e.g. DaVinci robots).

I see the advantages you say, but I'm afraid it would have some problems too, not the least of them would be the possibility of not detecting problems (as bleeding could be) due to the same cryogenics you use.

Another disadvantage would be (IMO) the impossibility (or at least extreme dificulty) to convert what was planned as 'laparoscopic' surgery into open one should worst go to worst.

That does not mean I don't see advantages, but you have already pointed most of them. I have to think more about it...

Dragoner December 17th, 2011 04:36 PM

It can explain some of the quick healing times stated in LBB1.

BytePro December 17th, 2011 05:44 PM

Like it, Dragoner!

Though I was thinking 'Cryostat' as the base word - the term for an actual device used for a broad range of cryogenic needs in industry and research - even medical treatment (rapid tissue diagnosis during some cancer surgeries, IIRC).

So Cryostatic Surgery sounds like a cool Sci-Fi tech to me!

Stasis fields ala E. Doc Smith shouldn't fit in normal Traveller TLs till one starts talking transporters, disintegraters, time travel and the like as everyday, IMO. (Which means some fool author included it in canon somewhere!)

IMTU, normal lowberths use a two step process that starts with a HIT (Hibernation Inducement Trigger) injection before the chamber is sealed and an initial gaseous stabilized Hydrogen Sulfide protocol begins. Then the second phase kicks in, in which heart rate is lowered, a full blood transfusion commences to replace plasma with a NCR injection (nucleoside-cryo-stabilizer) along with a low-temp liquid perfluorocarbon (PFC) solution replacing the chamber air, all while chamber pressure is intentionally changed in a very controlled way to facilitate inter- and intra- cellular infusion in conjunction with pleural stabilization while core temp is lowered into cryogenic ranges.

E-berth and field medical units replace the HIT with a high adenosine dosage injection to stop the heart while they immediately initiate an accelerated process otherwise identical to the above.

While in cryo-sleep, the body is in stasis - the medical type, referring to cessation of metabolic functions, not the temporal Sci-Fi type. ;)

The body tissue is not 'frozen solid' as the water has been conditioned with anti-freeze properties and the berth is filled with a still liquid solution - though it is at cryogenic temperatures.

Revival follows a reverse process, returning the blood (which has been purified) along with normal gaseous atmosphere at ambient pressure. The final step in automated revival involves a controlled series of adrenaline injections to return the heart to normal fibrillation. Manual injections are quite a bit riskier and require qualified medical personnel.

Note, these units have several doses of useful medical drugs, along with PFC tanks and Hydrogen Sulfide tanks - the later being fun given the 'rotten egg' smell and the fact they are flammable, not to mention poisonous... :devil:

I can definitely see surgical techniques being applicable - with the proper equipment, as the berth must remained sealed and thermally stable - in fact, it would be perfect for quite a number of surgeries. Though complications on revival would present increased risks, I would think, since it is pretty dramatic in and of itself, potentially masking symptoms and aggravating post-op conditions...

Very cool! (pun intended!)

Dragoner December 17th, 2011 06:01 PM

IIRC stasis and static have similar greek roots, cryo just cold, though I did mean it in more of a medical way than sci-fi. Somebody mentions "stasis" and everyone thinks Haldeman's Forever War, I know I do. ;)

The non-frozen solid part of your berth sounds great (the whole berth does actually) as it would facilitate the ability for surgery easier than frozen solid. Maybe a micro laser cutter-head on a suction tube that can enter a wound and cut a slug into pieces for removal. I have a friend who works for a company that does micro-welding of medical instruments under a electron microscope, crazy stuff.

far-trader December 17th, 2011 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BytePro (Post 385981)
...Stasis fields ala E. Doc Smith shouldn't fit in normal Traveller TLs till one starts talking transporters, disintegraters, time travel and the like as everyday, IMO. (Which means some fool author included it in canon somewhere!)

It's the old Traveller magic grav manipulation to blame here. Traveller stasis fields use grav control to slow/stop motion at a molecular level with exacting precision...

...yeah, well, somebody got it into canon :)

I don't recall the exact TL. Maybe 12-13? It was a MegaTraveller article iirc.

BytePro December 17th, 2011 07:35 PM

Hahahaha... :rofl: oh... ouch! :oo:

Quote:

Originally Posted by far-trader (Post 385985)
It's the old Traveller magic grav manipulation to blame here. Traveller stasis fields use grav control to slow/stop motion at a molecular level with exacting precision...

No - its more like the old 'let any old amateur wannabe sci-fi author publish stuff for money' syndrome to blame ;)

Got nothing against gravitics based handwaviums - but when authors go blatantly waving fingers around at common sense... :nonono:

Grav control at the molecular level this implies - at least trillions of cells (estimated from 10 to 200) not to mention bacteria (over a quadrillion by some estimates) and the nucleic and other molecules - conservatively, over a septillion molecules, easy (Very easy!)

Cool - my PCs can reprogram a lowberth into a matter transformer and turn last nights leftovers into a FGMP! Or replace that puny Model-6 computer... and screw those military sensor analyzers - they can use the lowberth control unit instead! :rolleyes:

Good thing I never gave a rats about 'official cannon', and pure fluff that makes no sense gets filed in a different category, for me. ;)


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