Citizens of the Imperium

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rancke July 22nd, 2015 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flykiller (Post 512189)
the big attraction of public transit is that it allows city/social planners to dictate where everyone may and may not and must and must not go. great for high law level worlds.

Some people find that the lower cost of transportation is a more important attraction.


Hans

flykiller July 22nd, 2015 06:04 PM

Quote:

Some people find that the lower cost of transportation is a more important attraction.
heh. yeah, it STARTS cheap ... and later they discover that now, no matter how expensive it gets and no matter how much more they are willing to pay, certain things simply are disallowed.

"hey, transport. take me and my kids to the park today."

"I'm sorry dave, but I can't do that."

"ok, well, take us to the lake, we'll go fishing."

"I'm sorry dave, but you have no permit for that resource expenditure."

and so on.

flykiller July 22nd, 2015 06:07 PM

heh. you don't own it.

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers...-jeep-highway/

rancke July 22nd, 2015 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flykiller (Post 512214)
heh. yeah, it STARTS cheap ... and later they discover that now, no matter how expensive it gets and no matter how much more they are willing to pay, certain things simply are disallowed.

"hey, transport. take me and my kids to the park today."

"I'm sorry dave, but I can't do that."

"ok, well, take us to the lake, we'll go fishing."

"I'm sorry dave, but you have no permit for that resource expenditure."

and so on.

Do you have a single authenticated real world example of things working out like that?


Hans

whartung July 22nd, 2015 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quint (Post 512125)
Alternately you could go the route of the Daniel Keys Moran did in his Continuing Time novels - see "The Long Run" and "Emerald Eyes"

Unrelated, but "The Long Run" (by Daniel Keys Moran) is my favorite all time book. The others are very good, TLR is my favorite.

When electricity/[alternative fuel] reaches the power and duration of gasoline, NASCAR will happily switch over. Open Wheel racing already races with alcohol based fuels, NASCAR doesn't bother as it's not necessary (since peak horsepower is not a driving goal for them, the cars are "fast enough").

Nobody will go see electric car drag racing. It's fast, but it's boring. A Top Fuel race is a visceral experience beyond simply the speed itself. They can race in parking lots. Fuel isn't their limitation, noise is. Auto sports have effectively zero impact on anything in terms of carbon fuel use. There's simply not enough of it compared to normal use.

Auto bots (self driving cars) will have a great impact on transportation in all but the lowest density areas. The problem with bots for hire is simply the number of bots available at any one time. I can not see a profitable situation where a company will have the excess capacity to manage something like "rush hour", causing a great shortage during those times.

What will be interesting is to see whether the density of buses will increase when the bots become the drivers. It's a question of whether labor is the primary cost component for running a bus vs not. Buses are the most scalable solution to handling diverse routes and reasonable volumes with existing infrastructure.

But, for example, my commute is 20m, and a bus would cost as much in terms of fuel, takes 1.5 hours, and involves quite a bit of walking, so I don't take the bus. Add buses, more often, closer to my destinations, make it a 1/2 hour commute, and it's quite viable.

Ad hoc mini bot buses (like the round about airport shuttles) may work, but the daily surge at the start and end of day, hard to say -- lots of people moving at those times.

individual auto bots, I just don't see them as a public resource during rush hour (i.e. "you can't get a cab in Manhattan this time of day").

That said, daily parking can be managed in that your personal auto bot can drive you to work, then return home (or wherever it's assigned parking spot is). Later, it can come pick you up. Then buildings and cities would have something similar to the "cell phone parking lots" that airports have. A place that cars can wait a short period nearby until they're needed.

The auto bot knows you "get off at 5", and starts the travel. Then it stages nearby until you are actually leaving the office. Then you alert it as you're entering the elevators and leaving the building, and the car shows up in the queue up front.

The final problem with the shared auto bot is making the machine self aware enough that someone hasn't done something simply vile in the car. Having one come up with unmentionable things having happened in the back seat, yea you can order another one, but…yeah…good times.

flykiller July 22nd, 2015 06:24 PM

Quote:

Do you have a single authenticated real world example of things working out like that?
regarding transport? nope! not yet! but you'll see it.

but in other things, sure! "we haven't shut down the newspaper, it's just that darn paper shortage ...." "we're not taking away your guns, you just can't carry them in town ...." "sure, you can vote, just after you pass this little literacy test ...." "we'll just search you and your car, no probable cause, officer safety you know ...." "sure you can set up a business ... after you get this permit ... then that permit ... then sign this agreement ... and hire these certain people ... and if the sheriff approves ... and if the county approves ... and if you post insurance with this company and deposit with this bank ...." "yes, you can withdraw your money out of the bank, as long as the amount is less than $10,000 ... $5000 ... $2000 ...."

actually, come to think of it, yes, I have two examples with regards to transportation. 1) ancient romans from about 200ad on were not permitted to travel unless they carried with them proof that they had paid all their taxes. this consisted of a large thick metal plate with the appropriate up-to-date stamps from the town tax collector. no tax stamps, no travel. 2) vehicle-mounted breathalyzers, can't start your car engine until you blow into it and it decides you're not drunk. if it fails or breaks, well, no driving for you until it's fixed.

rancke July 22nd, 2015 06:46 PM

I was thinking about regulations that could be implemented if people had to rely on public transportation but not if they had their own. I know of plenty of repressive regimes with repressive rules and regulations. But I can't think of any that would have been impossible to implement because of private car ownership.


Hans

rancke July 22nd, 2015 06:48 PM

Another possibility is the public car pool. Citizens sign out cars for the hours they need them and return them when they no longer need them, allowing more people to share the use of each car.


Hans

Condottiere July 22nd, 2015 07:08 PM

You can link usage with supply and demand; when there is little demand, the cost is cheaper, when there is a lot, you have to pay a premium.

Sifu Blackirish July 22nd, 2015 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Condottiere (Post 512229)
You can link usage with supply and demand; when there is little demand, the cost is cheaper, when there is a lot, you have to pay a premium.

Yeah, iI can see that easily. Middle of the night, 'floor prices' are the norm, but at rush hour? Bidding prices! See the minimum 'cents per mile' number creep up, with the sure knowledge that if you don't bid up, you are at the bottom of the list.

No one has mentioned a potential planet yet! I imagine something like the 'Damnation Alley' book environment. Severe winds over 200ft, radiation storms, swampland eventually taking over? Sunny days would be a rarity. While I am thinking of it, what is on this planet that justifies a human presence? Valuable mineral, animal or plant? A failed colony, exiles, prison?


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