Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   AHL deckplans officially retconned? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=36562)

flg September 11th, 2016 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 549012)
Would not be the first time they got caught in a lie.

To be fair, I don't know if Mongoose themselves claimed that the original intent was horizontal or if that came from other people in the playtest, which is why I left the question open. I'd prefer to think that someone in the chain misunderstood something than outright lied about it.

Still, if the books did go through the approval process (which Matt claims they did), then how did this get missed? Ultimately the responsibility is with the people who approved the change, isn't it? So either they were OK with it (which means that they should come here and say that was what happened), or they didn't notice it (which means that the approval process isn't very effective).

DickNervous September 11th, 2016 02:33 PM

Not that I want to throw gas on the fire, and I completely understand the arguments that Mongoose went and changed an iconic ship, but......

I was looking through the files from the CT CD and noticed that the only place the AHL deck plans are detailed is in "CT G03 Game 03a Azhanti High Lightning Complete" (and two files split from this) and "CT 05 Supplement 05 Lightning Class Cruisers". The first of which is a ruleset for a miniatures game and the second a supplement for use with that game (at least based upon the title of the book). While the books do not have a complete deck plan of the entire ship, it does list them in such a way that you can (safely) assume that they were laid out like a building, with 84 decks.

Now perhaps I am being naive here, but isn't it possible that the detailed deck plans were organized like a "skyscraper" simply to make it easier to print and play the miniatures game? Otherwise the deck plans would be very large and, at that time, prohibitively expensive to print for a retail game.

The reason I mention this is that the other reference I found to AHL is in "CT S09 Supplement 09 Fighting Ships" where on page 31 it clearly shows an image of a 60,000 ton "Frontier Cruiser" (which is identified as the AHL in the comments) flying "belly down", which would appear to support the layout that Mongoose published.

However, the bottom line is that, quite honestly, it doesn't really matter. We can use either layout, or even create our own. After all, it isn't the first time that a newer book has been published that has changed some previously published "fact", nor will it likely be the last.

Now I will take my 2cr, step tot the side, and keep my mouth shut. :)

McPerth September 11th, 2016 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickNervous (Post 549038)
I was looking through the files from the CT CD and noticed that the only place the AHL deck plans are detailed is in "CT G03 Game 03a Azhanti High Lightning Complete" (and two files split from this) and "CT 05 Supplement 05 Lightning Class Cruisers". The first of which is a ruleset for a miniatures game and the second a supplement for use with that game (at least based upon the title of the book). While the books do not have a complete deck plan of the entire ship, it does list them in such a way that you can (safely) assume that they were laid out like a building, with 84 decks.

CT:S5 Lightning Class Cruisers was (IIRC) released initially only as a part of the game, and has the deailed deckplans for all the decks, as the game does.

Its deckplans also appear in MT Arrival Vengeance and and (partially, not all the maps) in the Challenge #42, pages 50-51, as part of the amber zone Ressearch Station Beta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickNervous (Post 549038)
Now perhaps I am being naive here, but isn't it possible that the detailed deck plans were organized like a "skyscraper" simply to make it easier to print and play the miniatures game? Otherwise the deck plans would be very large and, at that time, prohibitively expensive to print for a retail game.

As I already commented, that's quite posible. A deckplan of the Azhanti as belly sitter would be over 2 m long, and difficult playing the tactical game on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickNervous (Post 549038)
The reason I mention this is that the other reference I found to AHL is in "CT S09 Supplement 09 Fighting Ships" where on page 31 it clearly shows an image of a 60,000 ton "Frontier Cruiser" (which is identified as the AHL in the comments) flying "belly down", which would appear to support the layout that Mongoose published.

I would not say the fact of appearing in vertical or horitzontal stance in the pictures in S9 means anything about its internal layout. If so;
  • the Atlantis and the Kikirrak (appearing in vertical stance) would be skyscrapper internal layout (IDK if that's true).
  • the Broadsword, that appears in diagonal stance should have diagonal internal layout?
  • And the Plankwell would be the funniest of all, as it appears vertical on its side...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickNervous (Post 549038)
However, the bottom line is that, quite honestly, it doesn't really matter. We can use either layout, or even create our own. After all, it isn't the first time that a newer book has been published that has changed some previously published "fact", nor will it likely be the last.

Sure, but just the fact of not having identifies it with one of the ships whose internal layout was better detailed would have avoided enraging the grognards...

Nightwind1 September 11th, 2016 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickNervous (Post 549038)
Not that I want to throw gas on the fire, and I completely understand the arguments that Mongoose went and changed an iconic ship, but......

I was looking through the files from the CT CD and noticed that the only place the AHL deck plans are detailed is in "CT G03 Game 03a Azhanti High Lightning Complete" (and two files split from this) and "CT 05 Supplement 05 Lightning Class Cruisers". The first of which is a ruleset for a miniatures game and the second a supplement for use with that game (at least based upon the title of the book). While the books do not have a complete deck plan of the entire ship, it does list them in such a way that you can (safely) assume that they were laid out like a building, with 84 decks.

Now perhaps I am being naive here, but isn't it possible that the detailed deck plans were organized like a "skyscraper" simply to make it easier to print and play the miniatures game? Otherwise the deck plans would be very large and, at that time, prohibitively expensive to print for a retail game.

The reason I mention this is that the other reference I found to AHL is in "CT S09 Supplement 09 Fighting Ships" where on page 31 it clearly shows an image of a 60,000 ton "Frontier Cruiser" (which is identified as the AHL in the comments) flying "belly down", which would appear to support the layout that Mongoose published.

However, the bottom line is that, quite honestly, it doesn't really matter. We can use either layout, or even create our own. After all, it isn't the first time that a newer book has been published that has changed some previously published "fact", nor will it likely be the last.

Now I will take my 2cr, step tot the side, and keep my mouth shut. :)

You also forgot MT "Arrival Vengeance", which has deckplans based on the original, but even MORE detailed in certain respects. Including the Bridge of the ship, the Lounge Deck and other decks, and a side-view cutaway that shows over 80 decks, bow-to-stern.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gal...er_cutaway.JPG

Whipsnade September 11th, 2016 08:04 PM

The only surprising in all of this is that some of you still find it surprising.

The nature of Mongoose as a company has been obvious to anyone paying attention from the first. Complaining now that Mongoose has ▮▮▮▮ed up the AHL deckplans when Mongoose has been constantly ▮▮▮▮ing up Traveller from their very first product is a case of locking the barn door after the horse escapes. Actually, it's more a case of locking the barn door after the horse escaped, lived a long life, died, and it's corpse rendered down for glue.

Mongoose ▮▮▮▮ed up the AHL deckplans and is now lying about that ▮▮▮▮ up for the same reason the scorpion stung the turtle: It's what Mongoose does and it's what Mongoose is.

And if that's suddenly new to you, you haven't been paying attention.

The solution to all this is simple: Don't buy Mongoose products.

Money is the only thing they listen to. Not MWM, not DonM, not Robject, and most definitely not you. Hit them in the wallet and they'll start paying attention.

atpollard September 11th, 2016 09:32 PM

Thread Closed.

There has been more than enough heat and far too little light for a while now.

After so many pages, there seems nothing new to be said and only flame wars and infractions ahead.

If there is an official announcement, one of the Administrators will post it.
Until then, go play Traveller or some other activity that brings pleasure to you and no grief to me.


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