Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   Low Berths (revised) (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=39653)

timerover51 December 17th, 2018 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbuthod (Post 596656)
Well, I added the idea of a sedative, just this side of a medically induced coma, for that reason. It's three hours (I figure six for transfer, etc.) that they sleep through the journey. You can't resent what you can't perceive.

I see the protocol as: 1) Sedate. 2) Fast Drug. 3) 'Box'. 4) Transport. 5) Unbox. 6) Fast Antidote. 7) Reverse sedation.

Pax show up at their appointed check-in time, hand the steward their baggage, lie down on a couch, the steward administers a couple of injections or med patches. They then awaken on a similar couch in a different system two weeks later.

You will have a problem with drug allergies that the people do not know about until you have drugged them. I am not sure how the crew will like handling frozen corpses of that nature.

coliver988 December 17th, 2018 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timerover51 (Post 596663)
You will have a problem with drug allergies that the people do not know about until you have drugged them. I am not sure how the crew will like handling frozen corpses of that nature.

I'm fairly certain allergies would be checked prior to the trip.

I give platelets, and every single time they ask me about allergies - it hasn't changed in 20+ years but I suppose at some point it could change without me knowing, so in theory I suppose there could be unknown allergies.

That's one of the things about Traveller medical stuff: it seems stuck in the 70s. Give my my hypospray, darn it! I'm an RPG player, not a doctor!

kilemall December 17th, 2018 12:11 PM

Hmm, 60:1 ratio.


Again, you have to strap them in for their own protection. One misstep, they literally cannot balance themselves before they fall over and break something.


Let's say this drug is so powerful it slows down even germ or viral material from consuming/replicating to the same ratio on contact, so the body is protected from infections spreading at 60x the normal rate of the immune system. Not to mention rashes from waste elimination processes that take 3-5 hours.

Still doesn't stop external microbes from growing on the external sweat and environment, especially when you are running your air processing/filtering at a 60:1 lesser rate in concert with the reduced needs.

And simple things like dust settling which would be nothing on a normal moving human, would be a real problem, with each breath of slowly inhaled air getting 60x the normal intake of dust and eyeblinks clearing dust on the eyes 60x slower.

You are going to have to vacuum in and around these people every few days just to avoid them experiencing constant choking/coughing on dust and eye pain/inflammation, probably eye drops or goggle are in order.


Ya, no hassle stuff this Fast Drug.


So no I don't see it as a commercially viable avoid freezing low steerage with people just uncomfortably sitting on the equivalent of a bus/plane seat, even given that such a model requires no stateroom even for long flights.


At a minimum I think I would be charging 1 ton per Fast Passage, 1/2 for the seat and 1/2 for the medical/clean facilities to keep them unharmed, 1 Medic per ten passengers, an emergency Fast Antidote to get them into suits and out of harm's way if the ship is in trouble, and a laid-in margin of safety life support supply or emergency low berth to finish the jump plus one week.

Reduced stateroom and almost no life support overhead, drug costs both ways, medic stateroom and pay expense, a certain percentage to fund the emergency life support- I would say Fast Passage should come in at about Cr2500-3000.

With some chance of complications from the above issues, in most cases dealt with in minor treatement and/or rest, but certainly not a pleasant jet ride.


As to sedating, might avoid the personal discomfort but still requires more monitoring and maintenance then popsicles.

BlackBat242 December 18th, 2018 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 596674)
Hmm, 60:1 ratio.


Again, you have to strap them in for their own protection. One misstep, they literally cannot balance themselves before they fall over and break something.


Let's say this drug is so powerful it slows down even germ or viral material from consuming/replicating to the same ratio on contact, so the body is protected from infections spreading at 60x the normal rate of the immune system. Not to mention rashes from waste elimination processes that take 3-5 hours.

Still doesn't stop external microbes from growing on the external sweat and environment, especially when you are running your air processing/filtering at a 60:1 lesser rate in concert with the reduced needs.

And simple things like dust settling which would be nothing on a normal moving human, would be a real problem, with each breath of slowly inhaled air getting 60x the normal intake of dust and eyeblinks clearing dust on the eyes 60x slower.

You are going to have to vacuum in and around these people every few days just to avoid them experiencing constant choking/coughing on dust and eye pain/inflammation, probably eye drops or goggle are in order.


Ya, no hassle stuff this Fast Drug.


So no I don't see it as a commercially viable avoid freezing low steerage with people just uncomfortably sitting on the equivalent of a bus/plane seat, even given that such a model requires no stateroom even for long flights.


At a minimum I think I would be charging 1 ton per Fast Passage, 1/2 for the seat and 1/2 for the medical/clean facilities to keep them unharmed, 1 Medic per ten passengers, an emergency Fast Antidote to get them into suits and out of harm's way if the ship is in trouble, and a laid-in margin of safety life support supply or emergency low berth to finish the jump plus one week.

Reduced stateroom and almost no life support overhead, drug costs both ways, medic stateroom and pay expense, a certain percentage to fund the emergency life support- I would say Fast Passage should come in at about Cr2500-3000.

With some chance of complications from the above issues, in most cases dealt with in minor treatement and/or rest, but certainly not a pleasant jet ride.


As to sedating, might avoid the personal discomfort but still requires more monitoring and maintenance then popsicles.

Sigh.
1. no problem, done all the time with patients. Whoever handles medic duties for the ship will be proficient.

2a. Place sleeper in bio-bag, with filtered air supply. No microbe problem.
2b. Elimination is voluntary-controlled for 99%+ of the population - and space-suit-type elimination fittings take care of any involuntary. Anyone with vacc suit skill can fit them to the sleeper.

3. Simple anti-mocrobial spray on skin before bagging - and the bag is sterile inside.

4. Really? Never heard of breather masks that also cover the eyes (kinda like military gas masks) - if the bio-bag doesn't cover the head fully, which it will.


Looks like most of your objections are based on utterly incompetent procedures/equipment/personnel - even by 2018 standards!

Straybow December 22nd, 2018 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

I also created more advanced versions of low berths which grant a positive DM at higher TLs.

TL 12 Low Berth 75kCr +1 DM to survival roll. Same mass and other characteristics.
TL 15 Low Berth 100kCr +2 DM to survival roll. As above.

Granted the economics of low passengers are a bit wiggy. When building a ship, cargo space costs zero credits extra versus the cost of a low-berth. And at base 1000 Cr base per ton of cargo you are making credits back much sooner. Whereas with low berths you don't even break even for years (assuming 1 jump per month).

Each TL is a large technological jump, and each TL above the introduction of cold sleep would be a +1.


Yes, the economics of using an expensive piece of medical equipment for a solid week for only Cr1000 is totally crazy.

kilemall December 24th, 2018 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 596695)
Sigh.
1. no problem, done all the time with patients. Whoever handles medic duties for the ship will be proficient.

2a. Place sleeper in bio-bag, with filtered air supply. No microbe problem.
2b. Elimination is voluntary-controlled for 99%+ of the population - and space-suit-type elimination fittings take care of any involuntary. Anyone with vacc suit skill can fit them to the sleeper.

3. Simple anti-mocrobial spray on skin before bagging - and the bag is sterile inside.

4. Really? Never heard of breather masks that also cover the eyes (kinda like military gas masks) - if the bio-bag doesn't cover the head fully, which it will.


Looks like most of your objections are based on utterly incompetent procedures/equipment/personnel - even by 2018 standards!

They are based on the economics of small ship crews and greater man-hours/supply costs then what people seem to imagine Fast Passage is going to require.

Sure it can be done, but it's just not going to be slap em in a bus seat and let them slo-mo through the trip like some seem to think. It's going to require more medical overwatch and specialized medical equipment that is not going to make it 'cheap safe low berthing'.

In fact with the man-hours involved of strapping everyone in and then monitoring/adjusting, I'm guessing the life support costs even out- far less food or air, more drug cost and medics (and medic pay/stateroom/life support).

The big payoff is cramming more people into less space, so you aren't servicing 4 tons of stateroom overhead too. And again for a colonial trip for X jumps, the life support costs should stretch out over the 60 days, making your colonial ship costs more manageable while not risking the integrity of families to the risks of Low Passage.

Even if you are bound and determined to handwave away what I'm saying, just on game economics alone it shouldn't be a supercheap clever form of passage, inline with the other options cost/risk factors.

Rerednaw January 2nd, 2019 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straybow (Post 596916)
Each TL is a large technological jump, and each TL above the introduction of cold sleep would be a +1.


Yes, the economics of using an expensive piece of medical equipment for a solid week for only Cr1000 is totally crazy.

Oh I agree, except I did this for the KISS principle and to avoid an even greater change to the way the system works. I suppose we could modify it further but then unintended consequences and all that :)

Spenser TR January 2nd, 2019 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbuthod (Post 596658)
It's a bonanza for slavers. I'd mail my itinerary and shipper tracking number to my insurance company, and some of my better armed pals.

This is the part of the whole idea that interests me the most from a logistics point of view. I assume these trips aren't always on one ship, yes? Maybe a given ship is going from where you are to where you want to wind up, but it seems that more often there'd have to be a hand off.

And how exactly does that work?

Who hands you off? Who's responsible for booking you through? I doubt you know at the onset there will happen to be passage available for you as you make those transfers. How does receiving someone work? ID verified, and all that. Who oversees the whole thing? How are tracking numbers run down in the event a package goes astray?

I was writing up a little thingy about Stewards and all this settled into my thinking. Especially in the context described in AotI, I'd enjoy figuring out a semi-plausible way of describing how this would work.

Maksim-Smelchak February 4th, 2019 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

Interesting ideas. Thank you for sharing them.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Low_Berth_Rack

Shalom,
M.

Flattened Sphere April 16th, 2019 06:30 AM

My alternative to the low berth with poor survivability was the Fast Passage.

Basically, interstellar travel in an acceleration couch. You take a dose of Fast Drug at the start of your journey, and a dose of antidote at the end. You are attended by a couple of stewards who are also on Fast Drug, but the rest of the crew aren't.

Crunch the numbers ... it's a very cost-effective means of doing it. Plus, there's no danger of the ship being hijacked by any of the passengers ...


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