Citizens of the Imperium

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Elliot March 5th, 2004 04:14 AM

As a confession - I find the ship combat rules in the Ref's Manual to be really non user friendly. I always felt it should have been a separate game book or a box set like Brilliant Lances.

Has anyone ever re-written the hulk of MT combat to be an easy to operate game? If so what are your thoughts?

Elliot March 5th, 2004 04:14 AM

As a confession - I find the ship combat rules in the Ref's Manual to be really non user friendly. I always felt it should have been a separate game book or a box set like Brilliant Lances.

Has anyone ever re-written the hulk of MT combat to be an easy to operate game? If so what are your thoughts?

Elliot March 5th, 2004 04:14 AM

As a confession - I find the ship combat rules in the Ref's Manual to be really non user friendly. I always felt it should have been a separate game book or a box set like Brilliant Lances.

Has anyone ever re-written the hulk of MT combat to be an easy to operate game? If so what are your thoughts?

Tucker March 5th, 2004 04:25 AM

I too wish for somebody to do that job for me. It's like some kind of friggin' personality test to use that space combat section. I result in a pissed off Ref that just tosses it and punts it narrative style. I hate that too, since it's ALL MY FAULT when the dinky crappy PC heap gets smoked by the corsairs. I prefer the "rules" to murder PCs most of the time.

Tucker March 5th, 2004 04:25 AM

I too wish for somebody to do that job for me. It's like some kind of friggin' personality test to use that space combat section. I result in a pissed off Ref that just tosses it and punts it narrative style. I hate that too, since it's ALL MY FAULT when the dinky crappy PC heap gets smoked by the corsairs. I prefer the "rules" to murder PCs most of the time.

Tucker March 5th, 2004 04:25 AM

I too wish for somebody to do that job for me. It's like some kind of friggin' personality test to use that space combat section. I result in a pissed off Ref that just tosses it and punts it narrative style. I hate that too, since it's ALL MY FAULT when the dinky crappy PC heap gets smoked by the corsairs. I prefer the "rules" to murder PCs most of the time.

TheEngineer March 5th, 2004 06:12 AM

Hi,

in order to make it "user friendly" I packed the whole stuff into a computer program, which tells me "to hit", "to pen" values at given ranges or just simulates complete combat itself.

There are still some open questions regarding some part of the rules (e.g. visual range rules..), which makes it a bit difficult to implement these rules in a one and only correct way [img]smile.gif[/img]

IMHO MT combat tumbles between three extremes:
- You succeed without any problem
- nobody hurts another
- you die nearly instantly

Is that the way technology based combat works ?
Dont know.

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer March 5th, 2004 06:12 AM

Hi,

in order to make it "user friendly" I packed the whole stuff into a computer program, which tells me "to hit", "to pen" values at given ranges or just simulates complete combat itself.

There are still some open questions regarding some part of the rules (e.g. visual range rules..), which makes it a bit difficult to implement these rules in a one and only correct way [img]smile.gif[/img]

IMHO MT combat tumbles between three extremes:
- You succeed without any problem
- nobody hurts another
- you die nearly instantly

Is that the way technology based combat works ?
Dont know.

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer March 5th, 2004 06:12 AM

Hi,

in order to make it "user friendly" I packed the whole stuff into a computer program, which tells me "to hit", "to pen" values at given ranges or just simulates complete combat itself.

There are still some open questions regarding some part of the rules (e.g. visual range rules..), which makes it a bit difficult to implement these rules in a one and only correct way [img]smile.gif[/img]

IMHO MT combat tumbles between three extremes:
- You succeed without any problem
- nobody hurts another
- you die nearly instantly

Is that the way technology based combat works ?
Dont know.

Regards,

Mert

Tucker March 5th, 2004 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEngineer:

IMHO MT combat tumbles between three extremes:
- You succeed without any problem
- nobody hurts another
- you die nearly instantly

Is that the way technology based combat works ?
Dont know.

Regards,

Mert

This could describe almost any fightin'. But I get your meaning. Frankly, I've had baddies suicide, more or less, just to get back to the simpler vehicle generation system.

Tucker March 5th, 2004 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEngineer:

IMHO MT combat tumbles between three extremes:
- You succeed without any problem
- nobody hurts another
- you die nearly instantly

Is that the way technology based combat works ?
Dont know.

Regards,

Mert

This could describe almost any fightin'. But I get your meaning. Frankly, I've had baddies suicide, more or less, just to get back to the simpler vehicle generation system.

Tucker March 5th, 2004 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEngineer:

IMHO MT combat tumbles between three extremes:
- You succeed without any problem
- nobody hurts another
- you die nearly instantly

Is that the way technology based combat works ?
Dont know.

Regards,

Mert

This could describe almost any fightin'. But I get your meaning. Frankly, I've had baddies suicide, more or less, just to get back to the simpler vehicle generation system.

aramis March 5th, 2004 03:17 PM

I use the vehicle combat rules from the Ref's Companion. Eliminates loads of headaches.

Details of how I do it are at my website home.gci.net/~aramis/

aramis March 5th, 2004 03:17 PM

I use the vehicle combat rules from the Ref's Companion. Eliminates loads of headaches.

Details of how I do it are at my website home.gci.net/~aramis/

aramis March 5th, 2004 03:17 PM

I use the vehicle combat rules from the Ref's Companion. Eliminates loads of headaches.

Details of how I do it are at my website home.gci.net/~aramis/

kaladorn March 5th, 2004 08:09 PM

I sort of feel for Tucker (I prefer player decisions and the rules as established to murder players... though sometimes I bail them out if it is bad luck, not bad decisions, that has them in trouble).

I have tried to port BL to MT... ouch. There are some really good bits there, but the lack of MFDs, the different tech, and the allocation of systems to hull locations makes this a bit of a bear. I was thinking of linking MFDs to computer type, but that makes liners rather dangerous! The hit location thing doesn't get any easier, and if I'm not mistaken their are some distinctions between hull types in the two games too.

I'd publish some of my work, but anything referent to MT or to BL is going to infringe someone's IP rights. And publishing the 'other bits' is just too disjoint to be easily readable.

I might be keen, someday, to try a from scratch re-write of space combat for MT, using the generality of the task system and the existing ship designs to come up with a workable fun game a bit like BL.

kaladorn March 5th, 2004 08:09 PM

I sort of feel for Tucker (I prefer player decisions and the rules as established to murder players... though sometimes I bail them out if it is bad luck, not bad decisions, that has them in trouble).

I have tried to port BL to MT... ouch. There are some really good bits there, but the lack of MFDs, the different tech, and the allocation of systems to hull locations makes this a bit of a bear. I was thinking of linking MFDs to computer type, but that makes liners rather dangerous! The hit location thing doesn't get any easier, and if I'm not mistaken their are some distinctions between hull types in the two games too.

I'd publish some of my work, but anything referent to MT or to BL is going to infringe someone's IP rights. And publishing the 'other bits' is just too disjoint to be easily readable.

I might be keen, someday, to try a from scratch re-write of space combat for MT, using the generality of the task system and the existing ship designs to come up with a workable fun game a bit like BL.

kaladorn March 5th, 2004 08:09 PM

I sort of feel for Tucker (I prefer player decisions and the rules as established to murder players... though sometimes I bail them out if it is bad luck, not bad decisions, that has them in trouble).

I have tried to port BL to MT... ouch. There are some really good bits there, but the lack of MFDs, the different tech, and the allocation of systems to hull locations makes this a bit of a bear. I was thinking of linking MFDs to computer type, but that makes liners rather dangerous! The hit location thing doesn't get any easier, and if I'm not mistaken their are some distinctions between hull types in the two games too.

I'd publish some of my work, but anything referent to MT or to BL is going to infringe someone's IP rights. And publishing the 'other bits' is just too disjoint to be easily readable.

I might be keen, someday, to try a from scratch re-write of space combat for MT, using the generality of the task system and the existing ship designs to come up with a workable fun game a bit like BL.

solsec23 March 10th, 2004 01:32 PM

I agree that the MT starship combat rules lack some zing.

I think as a wargame, it's fine, but I've always had a problem with 20 minute turns being 'exciting'.

Guess I grew up with too much Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, and Star Wars.

I'm keeping my current group out of starship combat for now, but later I'll bring it all together.

I am toying with the idea of making starship combat completely skill based, with certain adjustments for computer power and weapon effects.

I think the biggest problem is that while the MT SS combat does allow for skill replacement of certain computer factors, etc, most often I find that on the 'real' military vessels, their computer number is usually higher than character skill levels.

Why learn Turret weapons-3 only to not be able to use it when firing weapons from a ship with a model 3+ computer?

Once I figure out how I want to spice things up I'll post it for everyone's feedback.

Keep the engine running and the weapons hot,

Robert

solsec23 March 10th, 2004 01:32 PM

I agree that the MT starship combat rules lack some zing.

I think as a wargame, it's fine, but I've always had a problem with 20 minute turns being 'exciting'.

Guess I grew up with too much Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, and Star Wars.

I'm keeping my current group out of starship combat for now, but later I'll bring it all together.

I am toying with the idea of making starship combat completely skill based, with certain adjustments for computer power and weapon effects.

I think the biggest problem is that while the MT SS combat does allow for skill replacement of certain computer factors, etc, most often I find that on the 'real' military vessels, their computer number is usually higher than character skill levels.

Why learn Turret weapons-3 only to not be able to use it when firing weapons from a ship with a model 3+ computer?

Once I figure out how I want to spice things up I'll post it for everyone's feedback.

Keep the engine running and the weapons hot,

Robert

solsec23 March 10th, 2004 01:32 PM

I agree that the MT starship combat rules lack some zing.

I think as a wargame, it's fine, but I've always had a problem with 20 minute turns being 'exciting'.

Guess I grew up with too much Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, and Star Wars.

I'm keeping my current group out of starship combat for now, but later I'll bring it all together.

I am toying with the idea of making starship combat completely skill based, with certain adjustments for computer power and weapon effects.

I think the biggest problem is that while the MT SS combat does allow for skill replacement of certain computer factors, etc, most often I find that on the 'real' military vessels, their computer number is usually higher than character skill levels.

Why learn Turret weapons-3 only to not be able to use it when firing weapons from a ship with a model 3+ computer?

Once I figure out how I want to spice things up I'll post it for everyone's feedback.

Keep the engine running and the weapons hot,

Robert

TheEngineer March 10th, 2004 04:12 PM

Hi Robert,

20 minute turns:
Today I had an awful, showstopper bug in our software config management system. And we had to to prepare a release on afternoon.
I just say: several 20 minutes turn were just gone with the wind and there was much adrenalin flowing around [img]smile.gif[/img]

But I had this srewing feeling, too. So I just compressed the whole combat: range scale and time scale. Of course it changed nothing during a gaming session regarding combat resolution or suspense. So I changed it back [img]smile.gif[/img]

Skills:
I finally decided to ADD appropriate skill levels to the confrontation tasks, in order to respect the individuals skill and dont let them be too dumb compared to the machine [img]smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer March 10th, 2004 04:12 PM

Hi Robert,

20 minute turns:
Today I had an awful, showstopper bug in our software config management system. And we had to to prepare a release on afternoon.
I just say: several 20 minutes turn were just gone with the wind and there was much adrenalin flowing around [img]smile.gif[/img]

But I had this srewing feeling, too. So I just compressed the whole combat: range scale and time scale. Of course it changed nothing during a gaming session regarding combat resolution or suspense. So I changed it back [img]smile.gif[/img]

Skills:
I finally decided to ADD appropriate skill levels to the confrontation tasks, in order to respect the individuals skill and dont let them be too dumb compared to the machine [img]smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer March 10th, 2004 04:12 PM

Hi Robert,

20 minute turns:
Today I had an awful, showstopper bug in our software config management system. And we had to to prepare a release on afternoon.
I just say: several 20 minutes turn were just gone with the wind and there was much adrenalin flowing around [img]smile.gif[/img]

But I had this srewing feeling, too. So I just compressed the whole combat: range scale and time scale. Of course it changed nothing during a gaming session regarding combat resolution or suspense. So I changed it back [img]smile.gif[/img]

Skills:
I finally decided to ADD appropriate skill levels to the confrontation tasks, in order to respect the individuals skill and dont let them be too dumb compared to the machine [img]smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Mert

dancha March 10th, 2004 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
in order to make it "user friendly" I packed the whole stuff into a computer program, which tells me "to hit", "to pen" values at given ranges or just simulates complete combat itself.

Hey there -- is this something that you could or would share?

I'm very curious!

Thanks,
Dan

dancha March 10th, 2004 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
in order to make it "user friendly" I packed the whole stuff into a computer program, which tells me "to hit", "to pen" values at given ranges or just simulates complete combat itself.

Hey there -- is this something that you could or would share?

I'm very curious!

Thanks,
Dan

dancha March 10th, 2004 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
in order to make it "user friendly" I packed the whole stuff into a computer program, which tells me "to hit", "to pen" values at given ranges or just simulates complete combat itself.

Hey there -- is this something that you could or would share?

I'm very curious!

Thanks,
Dan

TheEngineer March 11th, 2004 02:53 AM

No problem [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just give me a private message with a mail adress.

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer March 11th, 2004 02:53 AM

No problem [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just give me a private message with a mail adress.

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer March 11th, 2004 02:53 AM

No problem [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just give me a private message with a mail adress.

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer September 12th, 2004 03:57 PM

Hi !

Just to be curious:

Who has actually used or still is using the MT ship combat system anyway ?

I would like to take a look at other house rule modifications of that stuff..

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer September 12th, 2004 03:57 PM

Hi !

Just to be curious:

Who has actually used or still is using the MT ship combat system anyway ?

I would like to take a look at other house rule modifications of that stuff..

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer September 12th, 2004 03:57 PM

Hi !

Just to be curious:

Who has actually used or still is using the MT ship combat system anyway ?

I would like to take a look at other house rule modifications of that stuff..

Regards,

Mert

aramis September 15th, 2004 04:18 PM

Mert

I'm currently revising my combat mechanics for MT... (Mainly since My website went away).

Under the vehicle combat rules, however, 1 minute turns become somewhat viable for ship combat. (ROF's are listed in the Ref's Manual for all hardpoint weapons.)

1 minute is 60 seconds, or 600m/s vector change per G, or 36000m/min vector change. Using a half-G hex size (18km) makes the ranges as listed reasonable.

I thnk I will go through striekr and revise the damages.

Meson damage formula
Dmg=1.2RbRbRb
where Rb= burst radius in m.
Or, simplifying,
Dmg=152*USP

assuming:
- you are using the DPx10 erratum from the Ref's Screen.
- x8 is the maximum possible damage modifier
- Rb is 5m * USP Conversion Value (A=10, F=15, L=20, etc)
- I remebered Sphere vol correct as 4/3PiR^3
- I calculated correctly.

I would raise the difficulty of meson fire by 1 level, due to the need to be three-d intercept in a short-length pulse.

(Most beams can treat the itnerecpt as a a 2d-solution...)

aramis September 15th, 2004 04:18 PM

Mert

I'm currently revising my combat mechanics for MT... (Mainly since My website went away).

Under the vehicle combat rules, however, 1 minute turns become somewhat viable for ship combat. (ROF's are listed in the Ref's Manual for all hardpoint weapons.)

1 minute is 60 seconds, or 600m/s vector change per G, or 36000m/min vector change. Using a half-G hex size (18km) makes the ranges as listed reasonable.

I thnk I will go through striekr and revise the damages.

Meson damage formula
Dmg=1.2RbRbRb
where Rb= burst radius in m.
Or, simplifying,
Dmg=152*USP

assuming:
- you are using the DPx10 erratum from the Ref's Screen.
- x8 is the maximum possible damage modifier
- Rb is 5m * USP Conversion Value (A=10, F=15, L=20, etc)
- I remebered Sphere vol correct as 4/3PiR^3
- I calculated correctly.

I would raise the difficulty of meson fire by 1 level, due to the need to be three-d intercept in a short-length pulse.

(Most beams can treat the itnerecpt as a a 2d-solution...)

aramis September 15th, 2004 04:18 PM

Mert

I'm currently revising my combat mechanics for MT... (Mainly since My website went away).

Under the vehicle combat rules, however, 1 minute turns become somewhat viable for ship combat. (ROF's are listed in the Ref's Manual for all hardpoint weapons.)

1 minute is 60 seconds, or 600m/s vector change per G, or 36000m/min vector change. Using a half-G hex size (18km) makes the ranges as listed reasonable.

I thnk I will go through striekr and revise the damages.

Meson damage formula
Dmg=1.2RbRbRb
where Rb= burst radius in m.
Or, simplifying,
Dmg=152*USP

assuming:
- you are using the DPx10 erratum from the Ref's Screen.
- x8 is the maximum possible damage modifier
- Rb is 5m * USP Conversion Value (A=10, F=15, L=20, etc)
- I remebered Sphere vol correct as 4/3PiR^3
- I calculated correctly.

I would raise the difficulty of meson fire by 1 level, due to the need to be three-d intercept in a short-length pulse.

(Most beams can treat the itnerecpt as a a 2d-solution...)

TheEngineer September 16th, 2004 05:54 PM

Hi !

Merging space and vehicle combat would be great, but up to now I had no time to work that out.
So I hope you might proceed here, Aramis.

Besides, I made my MT space combat sim available online. Just take a look at the software solutions.....

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer September 16th, 2004 05:54 PM

Hi !

Merging space and vehicle combat would be great, but up to now I had no time to work that out.
So I hope you might proceed here, Aramis.

Besides, I made my MT space combat sim available online. Just take a look at the software solutions.....

Regards,

Mert

TheEngineer September 16th, 2004 05:54 PM

Hi !

Merging space and vehicle combat would be great, but up to now I had no time to work that out.
So I hope you might proceed here, Aramis.

Besides, I made my MT space combat sim available online. Just take a look at the software solutions.....

Regards,

Mert

aramis September 23rd, 2004 06:07 AM

OK, Mert, I'll see if I can make it workable for the average shlub with just MTPH, MTRef's, and MTIE.

Batteries:
a battery uses the average gunnery skill of the gunners, Pen is the average of the weapons in the battery. Damage is the total of the weapons in the battery.

Batteries gaina couple of options...
1) Dispersed sheaf: -1 DifMod, 1/4th damage
2) Concentrated Sheaf: +1 DifMod, double damage (intentionally NOT ballanced)

Bays and Batteries: There is no reason bays can't be in batteries.

Mixed Batteries: Bad Idea. Only reason would be for mixed turret munitions... So organize the turrets into the batteries, not the weapons therein, but list each mounted weapon type as a single Battery, but the turret battery gets the damage track.

Say, would yall prefer I do a PDF for say, download, or post dribs and drabs here?

aramis September 23rd, 2004 06:07 AM

OK, Mert, I'll see if I can make it workable for the average shlub with just MTPH, MTRef's, and MTIE.

Batteries:
a battery uses the average gunnery skill of the gunners, Pen is the average of the weapons in the battery. Damage is the total of the weapons in the battery.

Batteries gaina couple of options...
1) Dispersed sheaf: -1 DifMod, 1/4th damage
2) Concentrated Sheaf: +1 DifMod, double damage (intentionally NOT ballanced)

Bays and Batteries: There is no reason bays can't be in batteries.

Mixed Batteries: Bad Idea. Only reason would be for mixed turret munitions... So organize the turrets into the batteries, not the weapons therein, but list each mounted weapon type as a single Battery, but the turret battery gets the damage track.

Say, would yall prefer I do a PDF for say, download, or post dribs and drabs here?

aramis September 23rd, 2004 06:07 AM

OK, Mert, I'll see if I can make it workable for the average shlub with just MTPH, MTRef's, and MTIE.

Batteries:
a battery uses the average gunnery skill of the gunners, Pen is the average of the weapons in the battery. Damage is the total of the weapons in the battery.

Batteries gaina couple of options...
1) Dispersed sheaf: -1 DifMod, 1/4th damage
2) Concentrated Sheaf: +1 DifMod, double damage (intentionally NOT ballanced)

Bays and Batteries: There is no reason bays can't be in batteries.

Mixed Batteries: Bad Idea. Only reason would be for mixed turret munitions... So organize the turrets into the batteries, not the weapons therein, but list each mounted weapon type as a single Battery, but the turret battery gets the damage track.

Say, would yall prefer I do a PDF for say, download, or post dribs and drabs here?

TheEngineer September 23rd, 2004 06:35 AM

Hi Aramis !

I will be happy with any form of information You can provide.
So You may provide it in a way you prefer [img]smile.gif[/img]

Respectfully,

Mert

TheEngineer September 23rd, 2004 06:35 AM

Hi Aramis !

I will be happy with any form of information You can provide.
So You may provide it in a way you prefer [img]smile.gif[/img]

Respectfully,

Mert

TheEngineer September 23rd, 2004 06:35 AM

Hi Aramis !

I will be happy with any form of information You can provide.
So You may provide it in a way you prefer [img]smile.gif[/img]

Respectfully,

Mert

Spud September 23rd, 2004 09:47 AM

OK, Mert, I'll see if I can make it workable for the average shlub with just MTPH, MTRef's, and MTIE.

<snip>

Say, would yall prefer I do a PDF for say, download, or post dribs and drabs here?

--------------------
-aramis

Well, golly, I think a PDF would be extremely generous of you, sir.

Spud September 23rd, 2004 09:47 AM

OK, Mert, I'll see if I can make it workable for the average shlub with just MTPH, MTRef's, and MTIE.

<snip>

Say, would yall prefer I do a PDF for say, download, or post dribs and drabs here?

--------------------
-aramis

Well, golly, I think a PDF would be extremely generous of you, sir.

Spud September 23rd, 2004 09:47 AM

OK, Mert, I'll see if I can make it workable for the average shlub with just MTPH, MTRef's, and MTIE.

<snip>

Say, would yall prefer I do a PDF for say, download, or post dribs and drabs here?

--------------------
-aramis

Well, golly, I think a PDF would be extremely generous of you, sir.

mike wightman September 23rd, 2004 03:15 PM

You got my vote for a pdf as well [img]smile.gif[/img]

mike wightman September 23rd, 2004 03:15 PM

You got my vote for a pdf as well [img]smile.gif[/img]


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