Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   So what am I supposed to do? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=19774)

drh June 18th, 2009 03:01 PM

So what am I supposed to do?
 
It's clear that Hunter wants to continue to ignore the elephant in the room and it's clear that Hunter is either totally oblivious to or don't care about or in denial about CotI's terrible reputation as a place to discuss Mongoose Traveller. And it's clear that all you want to do is close and stifle and stamp out any discussion about the serious problems that this board has, and that you have no qualms about banning people for raising it while being perfectly willing to allow the people who cause the problems to remain.

I have reported posts, I have PM's moderators, I have posted on this board, all for nothing. Hunter and his staff here are deliberately denying there is a problem. Their solution is just to tell me to leave, or more likely ban me for speaking my mind. So much for "freedom of speech" - it seems that we are free to criticize and insult Mongoose and to insult people for liking it, but not to criticize the running of this board when there is very obviously a problem here.

This doesn't make the underlying problem go away though. Banning me will not make it go away either. So my point remains - what are you going to do about the overwhelmingly negative attitude on the Mongoose boards and the bad reputation that CotI and QLI have because of it? Nothing? Seriously? And you're just going to Warn and/or Ban anyone who complains about it? Are you so keen to lose even more people because you can't accept some uncomfortable truths about this board?

So be it. Just don't complain about how everyone is leaving your "community" because of it then (of course, anyone who points out any better places to go just gets banned for that too. :oo: ). The fact that so many complaints have been raised about it by many other people here (all of whom have subsequently been banned, it seems) shows how much of a problem this is. Are they all "troublemakers" or could they perhaps have a point?

Either way, I guess I'll be joining the Honored Ranks of the Banned for this. I seem to be in good company in that regard.

tbeard1999 June 18th, 2009 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drh (Post 321756)
It's clear that Hunter wants to continue to ignore the elephant in the room and it's clear that Hunter is either totally oblivious to or don't care about or in denial about CotI's terrible reputation ...

You might consider dialing back your overwrought and stupifyingly repetitive bitching about how mean and nasty the COI regulars are to Mongoose.

Especially since the owner of Mongoose regularly participates here and has flatly stated that purchasers of the game also purchase the right to say anything they want about the game.

You might also consider whether your own tone is any more polite than the purported tone of folks you criticize.

And while I don't support banning you, I think you're doing a very good job of effectively banning yourself by your constant complaining.

drh June 18th, 2009 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbeard1999 (Post 321757)
And while I don't support banning you, I think you're doing a very good job of effectively banning yourself by your constant complaining.

And you aren't? Your insulting, arrogant tone is any better than mine supposedly is? It's just funny that I'm likely to be the one banned here for just trying to have civilized discussions but you aren't when you're the one being all insulting about it by calling my posts "stupefying bitching".

I am fully convinced that the problems will be solved only when you, supplement four, whipsnade, and mbrinkhues are banned at the very least from the Mongoose Traveller board here because you have repeatedly demonstrated nothing but histrionic hostility toward Mongoose and their products for as long as you have been here. When that happens, the tone of discussion on the MGT board will become infinitely more civilized. I guarantee it.

atpollard June 18th, 2009 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drh (Post 321756)
I have reported posts, I have PM's moderators, I have posted on this board, all for nothing. Hunter and his staff here are deliberately denying there is a problem. Their solution is just to tell me to leave, or more likely ban me for speaking my mind. So much for "freedom of speech" - it seems that we are free to criticize and insult Mongoose and to insult people for liking it, but not to criticize the running of this board when there is very obviously a problem here.

As I understand the system, warnings and infractions are not made public (known to all), so How do you know what effect your reports have had?

Frankly, I like a great deal of Mongoose Traveller (including parts of Mercenary) and yet I am critical of some decisions that Mongoose has made (like removing psionics from Aslan). Yet I find most of your posts to be 'personally abusive' against specific individuals (which is 'not allowed', rude and non-productive).

The only way to really end the 'bickering' (as distinct from actual disagreements which will never end - thank goodness) is to refrain from responding in-kind (thus becoming part of the problem) and to report posts you find are personal attacks or flame bait.

The moderators (including Hunter) will see the reported posts and make their own judgement. One bad post will not get someone banned (which is good and fair), but persistant refusal to heed moderator warnings WILL get them banned.

I would suggest that you reread Hunter's post to you (in your locked topic) and open your mind to the possibility that you are hurting yourself with your words and attitude far more than you are hurting those you see as 'the problem'. Hunter (and the moderators) have clearly stated that specific criticisms are not only allowed, but to be expected, but personal attacks and baiting are not.

MongooseMatt reopened a locked topic and recieved exactly the same warning that I had recieved from one of the Moderators when I did the same thing many years ago (except nobody accused me of being a game publisher). :) The moderation is really more even handed than you seem to perceive.

I use the YAHOO communities to discuss ideas when I want mostly positive feedback. I use COTI to post ideas when I want someone to kick the tires and point out flaws that I have overlooked. In the end, if you are looking for a place to discuss Traveller free from harsh criticism, then COTI is not for you.

drh June 18th, 2009 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 321763)
The only way to really end the 'bickering' (as distinct from actual disagreements which will never end - thank goodness) is to refrain from responding in-kind (thus becoming part of the problem) and to report posts you find are personal attacks or flame bait.

At least you admit that the other side are doing those posts too "responding in kind". That's the problem though. They start off their criticism in that nasty, negative way. They've been doing so for a long time, so evidently anybody's reports about them have amounted to nothing or they would have been told to posting like that by now wouldn't they? I really cannot believe I have been the only person to report them for their attitude.

Everyone needs to calm down about it. Yes, I get angry about it too, but I'm angry about the manner of criticism and the unfair and generally offensive and abusive attitude that the same people are allowed to take towards Mongoose here. And I will again single out tbeard, Whipsnade, Supplement Four, and mbrinkhues there. The first two there may occasionally have raised useful points, but all to often they have been phrased so arrogantly and patronizingly and offensively that it's enough to close anyone's minds to what they say.

I am not at all against criticism of Mongoose's products, so long as it is fair and constructive. What I am against, and what annoys me so much, is the constant criticism of Mongoose itself, and of the people who work there, and of the people who like them, and of the reasons why they do things. There is far too much of that going on here, so much so that any valid criticism or commentary is being drowned out by stupid, endless, pointless, and often very personal arguments and insults. And to be honest this is something that has plagued the Traveller community for a long time, it's just that most other boards do something to discourage that behavior.

This has to stop because it really is killing this board. Maybe the people involved can ratchet it down, but from what I've seen I doubt that will happen because they don't see that they're the problem. And the mods and admins clearly don't want to do anything about it either. It seems to me that CotI only has itself to blame for its reputation, and telling people to just "leave if you don't like it" is only going to make it worse as more and more moderate people abandon this board.

atpollard June 18th, 2009 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drh (Post 321760)
I am fully convinced that the problems will be solved only when [tbeard1999], supplement four, whipsnade, and mbrinkhues are banned at the very least from the Mongoose Traveller board here because you have repeatedly demonstrated nothing but histrionic hostility toward Mongoose and their products for as long as you have been here. When that happens, the tone of discussion on the MGT board will become infinitely more civilized. I guarantee it.

You do know that tbeard is writing something for Mongoose at MongooseMatt's invitation? Are you sure he needs to be banned?

S4 is one of the most insightful authorities on Classic Traveller that I know of. His repetive posting on his dislike of the direction taken by Mongoose Traveller are overly documented (IMHO), but he is not generally one of the 'regular dancers' in the multi-page shouting matches that bludgeon real discussions to a halt.

Heck, Whipsnade annoys me frequently. His agressive debating style and authoritative tone frequently leave me feeling like we are arguing even when we are in agreement on an issue. That doesn't make him a Mongoose hater.

I'll have to pass on mbrinkhues since I know he is not a fan of MgT, but I don't see him posting much on the MgT topics.

Perhaps if you could post links to recent "histrionic hostility" by the individuals, I would be able to see what you see. From where I sit, I simply wonder how you can possibly expect anything but trouble from openly stating that "the probelms will only be solved when X,Y and Z are banned". How would you react to such a post about you?

Allensh June 18th, 2009 04:17 PM

I'm not big on the removal of psionics from Aslan either. Rather than bitching for pages about this change, I just plan to ignore it :)

As for reporting...hey, all the mods have said to do it, so I will (when I feel it is right and appropriate and when I don't think fifteen other people probably already have, like a thread I read yesterday that, frankly, made me laugh out loud it was so...well you know)

I want really hard to just stay out of flame wars. I like what I like and I frankly don't gave a rodent's patootie what some of the so-called "experts" think.

I think everyone should just relax and not take any of this so seriously anymore.

Allen

Allensh June 18th, 2009 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drh (Post 321766)
Everyone needs to calm down about it. Yes, I get angry about it too, but I'm angry about the manner of criticism and the unfair and generally offensive and abusive attitude that the same people are allowed to take towards Mongoose here. And I will again single out tbeard, Whipsnade, Supplement Four, and mbrinkhues there. The first two there may occasionally have raised useful points, but all to often they have been phrased so arrogantly and patronizingly and offensively that it's enough to close anyone's minds to what they say.

I gotta disagree about tbeard..at least he actually seems to be suggesting fixes for some issues rather than just whining about them.

Allen

drh June 18th, 2009 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 321768)
You do know that tbeard is writing somethig for Mongoose at MongooseMatt's invitation? Are you sure he needs to be banned?

Why should that make any difference to whether he is banned or not?


Quote:

S4 is one of the most insightful authorities on Classic Traveller that I know of. His repetive posting on his dislike of the direction taken by Mongoose Traveller are overly documented (IMHO), but he is not generally one of the 'regular dancers' in the multi-page shouting matches that bludgeon real discussions to a halt.
He's never posted anything beyond pure melodrama about how Mongoose don't know Traveller, or how Marc Miller is wrong, or other such nonsense. He's certainly not serving any useful purpose by doing so. He's just a troll, pure and simple.


Quote:

Heck, Whipsnade annoys me frequently. His agressive debating style and authoritative tone frequently leave me feeling like we are arguing even when we are in agreement on an issue. That doesn't make him a Mongoose hater.
No, but it does mean he is breaking rules about civility and politeness. I don't care for the mods' attitude that says "oh, that's just how he is". The same rules should apply to everyone, not have exceptions if someone is expected to have an antagonistic attitude. It's nothing to do with "honest criticism" or anything like that - he can be "honest" and "frank" without weighing his posts down with rudeness or insults or venom.


Quote:

I'll have to pass on mbrinkhues since I know he is not a fan of MgT, but I don't see him posting much on the MgT topics.
What he has posted has not been constructive.


Quote:

How would you react to such a post about you?
I'd consider my attitude carefully. Maybe people here have much thicker skins than elsewhere on the internet and can shrug off all the insults and negativity as "normal discussion" , but on most other Traveller boards you don't need such thick skins because discussion there is more civilized and polite. And funnily enough, those same people often aren't there on those other traveller boards.

rust June 18th, 2009 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drh (Post 321776)
Maybe people here have much thicker skins than elsewhere on the internet and can shrug off all the insults and negativity as "normal discussion" , but on most other Traveller boards you don't need such thick skins because discussion there is more civilized and polite.

True, and I have left CotI twice for several months because of this - and I
may well do so again if the situation does not change.

But right now I think it would help to let the situation calm down a bit, and
some parts of your posts look a bit like an attempt to extinguish a fire by
pouring petrol into it - a kind of approach that rarely works.
And, frankly, you begin to remind me of a certain Spanish gentleman who had
a little problem with a number of windmills ... ;)

As mentioned by others, probably the only possible solution to the problems
is to react to individual bad posts by ignoring them, seeing them with a sen-
se of humour, or if necessary reporting them.
Reactions to - or attacks on - people instead of their opinions or posts has a
tendency to make matters even worse, and arguments with Hunter ...

Lean back, have a good cup of tea, go for a walk - please. :)


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