Citizens of the Imperium

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stofsk September 3rd, 2005 02:04 AM

I've been making a couple of deckplans for my campaign, and I've wondered about a couple of things.

1. Each stateroom/small cabin has a 'fresher'. This is a small cubicle thing where you can take a dump or piss, but can you also have a shower in it?

2. Where does the water come from? How does Traveller take it into account? How much supply do you have?

3. Same as 2. but in regards to oxygen.

4. Where do you do your laundry?

5. How do you dispose of waste?

More questions as they occur...

Jeff M. Hopper September 3rd, 2005 02:25 AM

1) Yes.

2) Traveller does not take that into account, but IMTU each crewmember/passenger has a supply of 10 liters per life support week that is recycled in a closed loop system.

3) Same answer as #2, but the supply is 1 person-week of air (not just oxygen) for each life support week.

4) Each stateroom has a very small washer/dryer unit, about the size of a minifridge. On larger crewed ships, there is actually a laundry room (manned by ship's servicemen).

5) Most organic waste (urine, feces, food) is recycled for the water. IMTU, the solid organic waste is used as growth medium for some staple foods on vessels so equipped. Some airless worlds actually will buy your filled sludge tanks from you since the organic material is so rare there. For solid, non-organic waste and some organic waste the ship dumps it at the next port it stops at (part of the docking fee is waste removal).

far-trader September 3rd, 2005 02:32 AM

I wouldn't so much call them answers, rather my opinions built on years of playing and reading. Yours to use as you will [img]smile.gif[/img]

1. Depending on the rules perhaps, but as far as I think I know ;) it's only full staterooms that actually have a fresher included. Other (lesser) accomodations have to make provision for a fresher outside the quarters.

IMTU the standard stateroom fresher takes up just under 1/4 of the room. My staterooms are 4 squares (2x2) with the fresher a quarter circle or angled affair in one corner.

They have all the functions built into the wall and folding out to allow waste and cleaning of most encountered species. That is a toilet, basin, shower, mirror vid, for wet or dry cleaning, with drying and soap and even more features in the higher TL such as body painting, coating, grooming and such. In addition they have a host of laundry settings and can even serve as a secure storage closet and in emergency a vacuum rated shelter, with an included rescue bubble.

2. Traveller doesn't really account for it, and there is probably plenty in all but a few extreme cases. IMTU the fresher recycles and purifies almost all of it. The fresher even has a small slot on the outside that can provide beverages of any temperature and flavour, as well as various processed food stuffs in a variety of textures and flavours, all of it recycled. Of course some people are squeamish and avoid using this feature and only take meals from the galley. Which, if you are travelling below High Passage, is partly recycled too.

3. Same as 2.

4. See 1.

5. See 1.

Quote:

Originally posted by stofsk:
More questions as they occur...
Which I'm sure will garner opinions which you may use if they work for you.

far-trader September 3rd, 2005 02:41 AM

Ah, Jeff's post reminds me I usually place a Fresher as part of the galley space as well (proportional to the size of the quarters) where more recycling takes place and the crew does the laundry and such for the officers/passengers.

Also as he notes dumping your waste is part of the docking fee, amd part of the costs of life support include treating and flushing the system as well as restocking the vitals needed to make it all work.

Interesting idea on the trade of organics there Jeff [img]smile.gif[/img] Would also make an "interesting" speculative (or otherwise) cargo [img]graemlins/file_22.gif[/img]

stofsk September 3rd, 2005 02:59 AM

Awesome answers, thanks!

J.C.D. September 3rd, 2005 03:44 AM

I was just about to ask about life support systems, and why, for example, the otherwise excellent ship design system in gurps traveller doesn't have any life support systems when i saw this.

One other question comes up: How many people can a ship support in terms of oxygen? I mean, you could theoretically cram a couple hundred people into a beowulf, but would it be able to recycle the air fast enough? What's the maximum number of people a beowulf, marava, suileman, etc, could support?

One thing I thought of, and hang onto your hats for this because it'b brilliant, is that a ship may have nearly unlimited oxygen supplies thanks to it's fusion reactor.

Think about it a minute: A fusion reactor fuses hydrogen to helium. Ok, what happens if you suqeeze a little harder? You can fuse helium into lithium, then beryllium, then boron, then carbon, then nitrogen and finally into the big O, oxygen!

I'm not grognard enough (tho I'm slowly evolving) to know of a traveller fusion reactor can produce elements other than helium, but if it can easily and rtoutinely fuse hydrogen into helium, then it might be able to fuse other light elements up the periodic table until it got to oxygen, a very useful element, most lifeforms find.

Of course it would mean the reactor could also produce helium, lithium, beryllium, boron, carbon and nitrogen.

Beryllium is a very useful metal and would be quite useful in a high tech setting where light and strong things needed to be made since it's a very light and strong metal, and if it could be made as a by-product of fusion power it might explain why so many goodies like ship hulls can be made the way they are.

But back on track, I wonder if a fusion reactor could produce oxygen as a byproduct and if so would that explain the life support system?

As a followup to this, a fusion reactor must at least produce helium as a byproduct. Helium has some useful properties, so I wonder if it gets collected and sold as a useful byproduct?

mike wightman September 3rd, 2005 03:59 AM

The best description of a fresher I've found in canon is is the CT Signal GK adventure.

Quote:

Plumbing: Each stateroom contains sanitary facilities for individuals, including shower, toilet, and washbasin.
Quote:

Sanitary necessities are handled by the fresher, which includes a multi-function shower, a toilet, a sink, and a small washer/dryer (for the benefit of middle passengers). All components fold unobtrusively out of the way when not in use.

stofsk September 3rd, 2005 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
But back on track, I wonder if a fusion reactor could produce oxygen as a byproduct and if so would that explain the life support system?
What if the fuel is H2O and through electrolysis you split the Hydrogen to use in the powerplant, while the Oxygen is released into the cabins?

I don't know what this does to the Traveller canon, however.

Jeff M. Hopper September 3rd, 2005 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
One thing I thought of, and hang onto your hats for this because it'b brilliant, is that a ship may have nearly unlimited oxygen supplies thanks to it's fusion reactor.

Think about it a minute: A fusion reactor fuses hydrogen to helium. Ok, what happens if you suqeeze a little harder? You can fuse helium into lithium, then beryllium, then boron, then carbon, then nitrogen and finally into the big O, oxygen!

But back on track, I wonder if a fusion reactor could produce oxygen as a byproduct and if so would that explain the life support system?

As a followup to this, a fusion reactor must at least produce helium as a byproduct. Helium has some useful properties, so I wonder if it gets collected and sold as a useful byproduct?

Give this wonderful article by Terry Carlino a read. You can find it at Freelance Traveller or just hit the link below.

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/fe...tm/fusion.html

Now, as to fusing oxygen. While it is possible, the amount of energy required to fuse the oxygen itself would be greater then the amount of energy expended in getting water somewhere and electrolysizing it into oxygen and hydrogen. So it becomes uneconomical and impractical to create oxygen that way. You can do it, but it doesn't make sense to do it that way.

IMTU, the helium is vented away from the ship as a waste gas. It would take too much effort to retain and then cool down the helium to a storable temperature to make it practical.

Whipsnade September 3rd, 2005 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
What's the maximum number of people a beowulf, marava, suileman, etc, could support?
J.C.D.,

You can find that answer in GT:Starships. I believe it's the first actual official answer to that particular question that has been available in Traveller.

Quote:

One thing I thought of, and hang onto your hats for this because it'b brilliant, is that a ship may have nearly unlimited oxygen supplies thanks to it's fusion reactor.
It is brilliant. It is also as old as the idea of fusion itself and utterly impractical for anything but weirdest of situations.

I first ran across the idea close to forty years ago in one volume of the Tom Swift juvenile scientist series. Tom and his pals are stuck at their moon base for a while. Tom creates oxygen and food (!!!!) for them using the process you so recently thought of. Believe me, if it was in a Tom Swift book, the idea has been around a looonnnggg time.

Google "the curve of binding energy" next. You'll see how far 'up' that curve oxygen is and get some understanding of the energies involved in 'building' it atom by atom from hydrogen. Simply put, you'll need a regular fusion reactor to supply power to the fusion reactor that is making oxygen.

Fusion as a power source will work because the energy gained by fusing certain atoms is (hopefully) more than the energy used to force that fusion in the first place. Fission works as a power source in the same manner doing the opposite thing; you gain more energy from splitting atoms than it takes to force that splitting.

You'll notice that the curve of binding energy peaks near an iron isotope. Very roughly speaking, everything before that peak is 'easy' to fuse and everything after that peak is 'easy' to split. However, you'll also notice that the elements we use in fission power generation and the elements we will use in fusion power generation are about as far from the peak of the binding energy curve as you can get. The further from the peak, the less energy it takes to fuse to 'fiss'.

So, that's the rub. You can use a fusion reactor to make oxygen. Sadly, you cannot use a fusion reactor to make oxygen and electricity at the same time.

Of course, IYTU YMMV. And YM should V because it is YTU! We all make tweaks we feel are fun and neccessary to make our TUs work. You should too. It's one of the strengths of Traveller.


Have fun,
Bill


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