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kilemall April 17th, 2019 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlobrand (Post 600878)
Given that the fuel tanks typically comprise a large percentage of a ship's volume, I kind of expect to see them on the interior explosion chart. It might be easier to cap the amount of fuel loss, say to 25% of fuel up to a maximum 10,000 dTons, on the argument that ships would have multiple tanks in different locations so that one explosion wouldn't get them all.


Actually I assume the fuel tanks are external by design, acting as a sort of ersatz armor and radiation shielding. In HG I assume most warships have an internal hull that carries all the inner goodies, weapons fuel and maneuver wrapped around that internal hull and then the external hull covering those. More like a submarine then anything else. I brought that assumption forward for my version.



I do allow meson guns to possibly do fuel hits, but only after a guaranteed internal hit, the idea then is that the meson 'detonation' occurred between whatever internal system and the fuel tanks to the immediate exterior of that system.


I translate Fuel Tank Shattered to Fuel System Disabled and apply whatever tonnage to Fuel. The Fuel System can then be repaired but the tonnage hit is gone.

Carlobrand April 17th, 2019 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 600880)
Actually I assume the fuel tanks are external by design, acting as a sort of ersatz armor and radiation shielding. In HG I assume most warships have an internal hull that carries all the inner goodies, weapons fuel and maneuver wrapped around that internal hull and then the external hull covering those. More like a submarine then anything else. I brought that assumption forward for my version. ...

Interesting. Since the armor mass calculations are based on the entire volume rather than the volume less fuel, I assumed they're within the armor but between the armor and the chewy caramel center. I figured, since they were storing liquid hydrogen at cryogenic temperatures, they were responding to hits that caused heating of the hull by venting hydrogen before it could heat up and rupture the tank (ergo the individual tanks are about 1% of the fuel volume each). The other way would be interesting as it would reduce armor mass and volume, but then the tanks wouldn't get the benefit of the armor on the surface damage chart and we'd have to figure some other way of calculating surface damage.

That might be an interesting variant: protected cruisers on which armor weight was decreased - or armor thickened over vital areas - by having the armor only protect the vital bits.

mike wightman April 18th, 2019 03:45 AM

Fuel tanks are inside the armoured hull.

Rules for external tanks exist in the form of drop tanks and external demountable tanks, TCS has this to say:
Quote:

Both drop tanks and exterior demountable tanks are very vulnerable to battledamage. Whenever a battle damage die-roll, if unmodified by ship armor, would produce a fuel hit, all exterior or drop tanks are destroyed.
For example, suppose a ship equipped with drop tanks and level 8 armor is hit by a factor 5 fusion gun. After defenses are penetrated, damage is rolled; the unmodified die roll is 4. The modified roll for ship damage is 18 (+8 for the armor, +6 for a weapon code of 9 or less). The modified roll for the drop tanks is 10 (ignoring the armor), resulting in Fuel-I ; the drop tanks are destroyed.

Condottiere April 18th, 2019 04:02 AM

You can compartmentalize bunkerage, and place most of the armour behind them, having blow out panels that directs a blast outwards.

The equivalent of torpedo bulge.

kilemall April 18th, 2019 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlobrand (Post 600885)
Interesting. Since the armor mass calculations are based on the entire volume rather than the volume less fuel, I assumed they're within the armor but between the armor and the chewy caramel center. I figured, since they were storing liquid hydrogen at cryogenic temperatures, they were responding to hits that caused heating of the hull by venting hydrogen before it could heat up and rupture the tank (ergo the individual tanks are about 1% of the fuel volume each). The other way would be interesting as it would reduce armor mass and volume, but then the tanks wouldn't get the benefit of the armor on the surface damage chart and we'd have to figure some other way of calculating surface damage.

That might be an interesting variant: protected cruisers on which armor weight was decreased - or armor thickened over vital areas - by having the armor only protect the vital bits.


That was the direction of my detailed armor bits iteration, but decided ultimately it had minimal play value.


What you describe is how battleship armor was done.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_or_nothing_(armor)


If I were to superprotect something, it would be the power plant, the computers, the capacitors and magazines. A noble's yacht might superprotect the noble's quarters or getaway small craft.




But just looking at how damage slides, it's clear fuel tanks are served up as the sacrificial lambs of damage and are the first things to get hit along with weapons and maneuver, both systems that are on the exterior skin.

kilemall April 18th, 2019 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 600894)
Fuel tanks are inside the armoured hull.

Rules for external tanks exist in the form of drop tanks and external demountable tanks, TCS has this to say:


Are you presenting this in opposition to my conception?


I'm saying in HG they are demonstrably under an armor hull as less fuel gets lost the more armor you have, but if you look at the effects of armor the first thing it does at lower levels is wall off internal damage from surface weapons. Between that and the continuing vulnerability of fuel even after you've laid on heavy armor, it's clear the tanks are on the outer layer of the ship.

mike wightman April 18th, 2019 06:17 AM

I agree that you wrap the fuel tankage around the more critical internal systems as extra protection where possible.
It goes armour - fuel - internals.

Have you ever messed around with Renegade Legion:Leviathan?

Carlobrand April 18th, 2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 600894)
...Rules for external tanks exist in the form of drop tanks and external demountable tanks...

Yes, those were rules applied to temporary tankage. There isn't a concept of "protected cruiser" in the game - and, yes, it's the same basic concept behind "all-or-nothing" armor. (That link doesn't work right.) It was applied to some late 19th century cruisers to make something that was lighter and quicker than an armored cruiser while having similar durability in battle; it fell out of favor when better armor and better engines became available.

What I'm thinking here isn't tankage slapped on external to the hull. Rather, it's placing the armor around the drive space, bridge, and other critical areas, to reduce the mass of armor used. Were a designer to design warships with permanent tankage vulnerable to damage, they would certainly design the tankage to limit fuel loss in the event of damage. One concept might be a honeycomb pattern of small tanks.

Actually, as I think about it, the idea may already be part of the damage table. I tend to assume armor is evenly applied around the hull when we deal with those percentages, but the damage table arranges damage so that internals stop happening first, and then it gets harder to get at the maneuver drive (which by function and location would be harder to protect), so clearly some sort of selective armoring is going on at the lower levels.

AnotherDilbert April 18th, 2019 10:32 AM

The board places the closing parenthesis outside the link. You have to make sure the link is correct yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_or_nothing_(armor)

Condottiere April 18th, 2019 11:32 AM

As general categories, you had protected, unprotected and armoured cruisers, and sub divided between first and third classes.

Protected cruisers used an armouring scheme that bet on the shells falling on the deck, and covering that with an armoured layer.

Most Traveller spaceship design mechanics don't permit that degree of selective armouring.


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