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-   -   MGT Only: FFW: Zhodani destroyers? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=39911)

Redcap March 10th, 2019 06:08 PM

FFW: Zhodani destroyers?
 
There appears to be a lack of Zho Destroyers for the FFW: Destroyer escorts, etc, yes, but no destroyers that I can find.

Anyone point me to an MgT2e Zho destroyer, please?

(needed for a forthcoming game, so there's a tad of urgency on this)

Ta muchly in swift advance :)

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 07:22 AM

I can't recall any official MgT2 designs.

How about this, as a reimagined Vlezhdatl "Strike Cruiser":

2500 Dt, J-2, M-6, Armour 14, Hull 1100, MCr 1875
Good sensors (DM+5) and ECM (DM+8) with backups and 8 operators.
Computer Core/90 and backup Core/40/fib with full software suite.
Three bays, one Particle (8D, Accurate +1) and two Missile (launches 48).
20 turrets/barbettes (space reserved for 20 barbettes), here
_ 10 Particle (Accurate +1) barbettes against fighters and
_ 10 Pulse Laser (Long Range) turrets against missiles.
2 PD Batteries, kills 3D missiles each.
2 Sub-Command Centres, e.g. dedicated to barbette and turrets (+1 on checks)
8 Nuclear Dampers against Nukes and Fusion Guns.
2 Vlezhdest Fighters
2 Utility Gigs
Limited storage 21 Dt.
Crew: 152, including 14 officers and 48 troops.

Not optimised for any particular role, but reasonably combat effective.

Due to limited jump and storage it often operated in groups of three with a dedicated tanker/tender to extend range and mission endurance.


https://i.imgur.com/QmdmCAv.png

https://i.imgur.com/W54lSYZ.png

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 07:35 AM

Vlezhdest (Star Prince) Fighter:

35.2 Dt, M-9, Armour 14+Reflec, Hull 17, MCr 36.
Reaction drive-16 with 8 turn fuel. Additional fuel can be carried in drop tanks.
Very basic sensors (DM -4).
Small computer m/15 with m/10fib backup and small selection of software.
Fusion barbette (5D, Long Range).
Crew: 2.

https://i.imgur.com/gzTOYKS.png

Redcap March 11th, 2019 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599945)
I can't recall any official MgT2 designs.

How about this, as a reimagined Vlezhdatl "Strike Cruiser":

(mass snippage)

Thanks for the fast reply :) I've got a CT LBB 5 design for a strike destroyer (5,000 ton hull), but no real way to convert it directly across without spending inordinate amounts of time I don't have working it up from scratch in MgT HG2e, which is annoying (to say the least).

This said, that CS of yours is interesting; I've never understood why anything short of a carrier would need fighters (heck, I've never understood the need for any non-carrier to have them) - Guess I'm old-fashioned ;)

However, as you say, it's a tad short on legs, which is a problem, as the vessel I have in mind for this adventure will be encountered, operating independently, doing a little deep penetration work in the 5FW, and will need minimum J-3, ideally J-4 (my CT LBB HG design is a J-3, and carries two 50-ton armed cutters for boarding actions).

Thoughts?

Redcap March 11th, 2019 08:22 AM

This is the CT LBB HG2e design for the DS I mentioned above (note it scrolls off to the right in that text box!):

Code:

Ship: Badreapr
Class: Badreapr
Type: Strike Destroyer
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 14

USP
        DS-E2333D5-270103-70909-0 MCr 4,870.745 5 KTons
Bat Bear            1  1 1 1 2  Crew: 94
Bat                  1  1 1 1 2  TL: 14

Cargo: 329.500 Crew Sections: 5 of 19 Frozen Watch Fuel: 2,150 EP: 150 Agility: 1 Shipboard Security Detail: 5 Marines: 30
Craft: 2 x 50T Armed Cutter
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 2G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 2 Drive 1 x Factor 2 Power Plant 1 x Model/3fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 48.007  Cost in Quantity: MCr 3,910.596


Detailed Description
  (High Guard Design)

HULL
5,000.000 tons standard, 70,000.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
14 Officers, 50 Ratings, 30 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 3G Manuever, Power plant-3, 150.000 EP, Agility 1
1 x Jump-2 Backup, 1 x 2 G Manuever Backup, 1 x Power plant-2 Backup

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/3fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 3 50-ton bays, 10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 x 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 2 x 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9), 5 x Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7)

DEFENCES
1 x 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-3), 5 x Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7), 1 x Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
2 x 50.000 ton Armed Cutter (Each with Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 35.000)

FUEL
2,150 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
51 Staterooms, 19 Low Berths, 329 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 4,848.752 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 48.007), MCr 3,840.596 in Quantity, plus MCr 70.000 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
148 Weeks Singly, 118 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Strike Destroyer, designed for independent actions, primarily intended for use as a medium reconnaissance ship in advance of a main attack fleet, and in more domestic anti-piracy operations. Cargo space is for long-term consumables such as food, wwater, munitions/ammunition, engineering spares, and captured 'booty'/evidence.



Badreapr Class Strike Destroyer

Book 5 Crew Breakdown
Command section: 7 officers and 4 ratings; Engineering section: 2 officers and 13 ratings; Gunnery section: 2 officers and 13 ratings; Flight section: 1 officers and 6 ratings; Service section: 1 officers and 9 ratings; Medical Section: 1 officers and 0 ratings; Marines: 30
HULL
Hull: 0.000 Td; MCr 550.000
Armour Factor-2: 150.000 Td; MCr 75.000

ENGINEERING
M-Drive Factor-3: 400.000 Td; MCr 200.000
J-Drive Factor-3: 200.000 Td; MCr 800.000
P-Plant Factor-3: 300.000 Td; MCr 900.000; +150.000 EP
1 x Backup M-Drive Factor-2: 250.000 Td; MCr 175.000
1 x Backup J-Drive Factor-2: 150.000 Td; MCr 600.000
1 x Backup P-Plant Factor-2: 200.000 Td; MCr 1,200.000

FUEL
P-Fuel: 150.000 Td; MCr 0,000
J-Fuel: 2,000.000 Td; MCr 0.000
Scoops: 0.000 Td; MCr 5.000
Purification: 5.000 Td; MCr 0.035
L-Hyd Drop Tanks: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

AVIONICS
Bridge: 100.000 Td; MCr 25.000
Computer Model/4fib: 8.000 Td; MCr 45.000; -2 EP
1 x Backup Bridge: 100.000 Td; MCr 25.000
1 x Backup Computer Model/3fib: 6.000 Td; MCr 27.000

WEAPONRY
1 x 100T Particle Accelerator Bays: 100.000 Td; MCr 36.000; -60 EP
1 x 50T Repulsor Bays: 50.000 Td; MCr 6.500; -5 EP
2 x 50T Missile Bays: 100.000 Td; MCr 25.000
5 x Laser Turrets: 5.000 Td; MCr 20.500; -15 EP
5 x Sand Turrets: 5.000 Td; MCr 9.250

SCREENS
Nuclear Damper Factor-1: 50.000 Td; MCr 50.000; -10.000 EP

CRAFT
1 x Armed Cutter: 65.000Td; MCr 0.130; Cost of craft: MCr 35.000
1 x Armed Cutter: 65.000Td; MCr 0.130; Cost of craft: MCr 35.000

ACCOMODATIONS
51 x Staterooms: 202.000 Td; MCr 25.250
19 x Low Berths: 9.500 Td; MCr 0.950
Cargo: 329.500 Td; MCr 0.000

USER DEFINED


AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 08:35 AM

I stared with this: https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Z.I.S.M.V._Vlezhdatl


Many small Zho designs carry fighters. The Zho seems to like fighters...

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 09:27 AM

A quickie conversion of your design would be:

5000 Dt, J-3, M-6, Armour 14, Hull 2200, MCr 3800
Backup drives: J-2, M-2, PP-2. Backup bridge.
Good sensors (DM+5) and ECM (DM+8) with backups and 15 operators.
Computer Core/90 and backup Core/40/fib with full software suite.
Three bays, one Particle (8D, Accurate +1) and two Missile (launches 48).
40 turrets/barbettes (space reserved for 20 barbettes), here
_ 20 Particle (Accurate +1) barbettes against fighters and
_ 20 Pulse Laser (Long Range) turrets against missiles.
7 PD Batteries, kills 3D missiles each.
3 Sub-Command Centres, e.g. dedicated to barbette, turrets, and sensors (+1 on checks)
10 Nuclear Dampers against Nukes and Fusion Guns.
2 Utility Cutters
Storage 157 Dt. A few extra staterooms and medical low berths.
Crew: 114, including 11 officers and 30 troops. (Note: Used reduced crew for large ships.) 10 staterooms are enhanced for psions.


Not optimised for any particular role, but reasonably combat effective.

I added armour and M-6 drive, fairly cheap and very useful in combat, almost mandatory. I didn't manage J-4 without severely compromising combat performance.


https://i.imgur.com/CJXB73K.png

https://i.imgur.com/ovJt2UP.png

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599948)
This said, that CS of yours is interesting; I've never understood why anything short of a carrier would need fighters (heck, I've never understood the need for any non-carrier to have them) - Guess I'm old-fashioned ;)

In Mongoose fighters can be lethal even to battleships.

They are also quite useful to extend your sensor range.

Redcap March 11th, 2019 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599950)
I stared with this: https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Z.I.S.M.V._Vlezhdatl


Many small Zho designs carry fighters. The Zho seems to like fighters...

Interesting. Thanks :)

Redcap March 11th, 2019 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599954)
In Mongoose fighters can be lethal even to battleships.

They are also quite useful to extend your sensor range.

OK, upgraded a bit (thanks to you and CliffBates (off-list)!). Changed hull format from cone to needle/wedge. Replaced all sand casters with lasers, replaced all missiles with additional PA bays; added two fighters, repurposed empty space to additional ships stores.

Reasoning: From the wiki at https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Destro...lass_Archtypes

Quote:

Strike destroyers (DS) are intended for long-range reconnaissance and deep level offensive operations. Their best defense is their stealth, and are not intended to take on offensive operations against ships of similar weight and weapons. They run from serious competition and target under-defended installations and smaller ships. They will try to avoid taking serious damage unless there is a good reason for doing so.
The Badreapr class DS is the Zhodani answer to a deep-penetration destroyer, tasked with sneaking into a target system and having "a quick shufti" to see what's there to oppose an attacking force. It has no need of traditional missile armaments, and will do its best to stay out of the range of missiles, favouring it's particle accelerator to keep at beyond stand-off ranges while it prepared to jump out of trouble. It carries marines for boarding actions against lesser-capable opponents, and to perform reconnaissance missions, using the 50-ton armed cutters to ferry them to and from their insertion and extraction points (dropping them in orbit using grav-chute-equipped orbital personal re-entry kits if necessary; see MegaTraveller Journal 3 page 74, (c) DGP March 1992).

Code:

Ship: Badreapr
Class: Badreapr
Type: Strike Destroyer
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 14

USP
        DS-E1347D5-200103-70900-0 MCr 4,971.818 5 KTons
Bat Bear                1 1 3    Crew: 102
Bat                      1 1 3    TL: 14

Cargo: 0 Crew Sections: 5 of 21 Frozen Watch Fuel: 1,850 EP: 350 Agility: 2 Shipboard Security Detail: 5 Marines: 30 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 2 x 50T Armed Cutters, 2 x 25T Baql class Light Fighters
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 2G Maneuver Drive 1 x Factor 3 Power Plant 1 x Model/3fib Computer

Architects Fee: MCr 47.866  Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,014.494


Detailed Description
  (High Guard Design)

HULL
5,000.000 tons standard, 70,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
14 Officers, 58 Ratings, 30 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 4G Manuever, Power plant-7, 350.000 EP, Agility 2
12 G Manuever Backup, 1 Power plant-3 Backup

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/4fib Computer
1 Model/3fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 100-ton bays, 1 50-ton bay, 10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
3 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-9), 10 Triple Pulse Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7)

DEFENCES
1 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-3), Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Armed Cutters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 35.000), 2 25.000 ton Baql class Light Fighters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 57.600)

FUEL
1,850 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
54.5 Staterooms, 49 Low Berths, 0 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Additional ships stores and food/water supplies (34.500 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.000)

COST
MCr 4,834.484 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 47.866), MCr 3,829.294 in Quantity, plus MCr 185.200 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
148 Weeks Singly, 118 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Strike Destroyer, designed for independent actions, primarily intended for use
as a medium reconnaissance ship in advance of a main attack fleet, and in
deep penetration attacks as part of a small group (5-ship sqn) of similar
classed ships. Not intended to engage in combat with ships of the line of
similar or larger tonnage/capabilities other than to "shoot and scoot".



Badreapr Class Strike Destroyer

Book 5 Crew Breakdown
Command section: 7 officers and 4 ratings; Engineering section: 2 officers and 18 ratings; Gunnery section: 2 officers and 12 ratings; Flight section: 1 officers and 10 ratings; Service section: 1 officers and 9 ratings; Medical Section: 1 officers and 0 ratings; Marines: 30
HULL
Hull: 0.000 Td; MCr 600.000
Armour Factor-2: 150.000 Td; MCr 75.000

ENGINEERING
M-Drive Factor-4: 550.000 Td; MCr 275.000
J-Drive Factor-3: 200.000 Td; MCr 800.000
P-Plant Factor-7: 700.000 Td; MCr 2,100.000; +350.000 EP
1 x Backup M-Drive Factor-2: 250.000 Td; MCr 175.000
1 x Backup P-Plant Factor-3: 300.000 Td; MCr 450.000

FUEL
P-Fuel: 350.000 Td; MCr 0,000
J-Fuel: 1,500.000 Td; MCr 0.000
Scoops: 0.000 Td; MCr 5.000
Purification: 4.000 Td; MCr 0.028
L-Hyd Drop Tanks: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

AVIONICS
Bridge: 100.000 Td; MCr 25.000
Computer Model/4fib: 8.000 Td; MCr 45.000; -2 EP
1 x Backup Computer Model/3fib: 6.000 Td; MCr 27.000

WEAPONRY
3 x 100T Particle Accelerator Bays: 300.000 Td; MCr 108.000; -180 EP
1 x 50T Repulsor Bays: 50.000 Td; MCr 6.500; -5 EP
10 x Laser Turrets: 10.000 Td; MCr 15.000; -30 EP

SCREENS
Nuclear Damper Factor-1: 50.000 Td; MCr 50.000; -10.000 EP

CRAFT
2 x Armed Cutter: 130.000Td; MCr 0.260; Cost of craft: MCr 70.000
2 x Baql class Light Fighter: 65.000Td; MCr 0.130; Cost of craft: MCr 115.200

ACCOMODATIONS
54.5 x Staterooms: 218.000 Td; MCr 27.250
49 x Low Berths: 24.500 Td; MCr 2.450
Cargo: 0.000 Td; MCr 0.000

USER DEFINED
1 x Additional ships stores and food/water supplies: 34.500 Td; MCr 0.000; -0.000 EP

Oh, and I'm using High Guard Ships 1.3.1.4 to redesign this :) Pity there isn;t a similar package for MgT HG2e. Oh, well.

Redcap March 11th, 2019 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599953)
A quickie conversion of your design would be:

5000 Dt, J-3, M-6, Armour 14, Hull 2200, MCr 3800
Backup drives: J-2, M-2, PP-2. Backup bridge.
Good sensors (DM+5) and ECM (DM+8) with backups and 15 operators.
Computer Core/90 and backup Core/40/fib with full software suite.
Three bays, one Particle (8D, Accurate +1) and two Missile (launches 48).
40 turrets/barbettes (space reserved for 20 barbettes), here
_ 20 Particle (Accurate +1) barbettes against fighters and
_ 20 Pulse Laser (Long Range) turrets against missiles.
7 PD Batteries, kills 3D missiles each.
3 Sub-Command Centres, e.g. dedicated to barbette, turrets, and sensors (+1 on checks)
10 Nuclear Dampers against Nukes and Fusion Guns.
2 Utility Cutters
Storage 157 Dt. A few extra staterooms and medical low berths.
Crew: 114, including 11 officers and 30 troops. (Note: Used reduced crew for large ships.) 10 staterooms are enhanced for psions.


Not optimised for any particular role, but reasonably combat effective.

I added armour and M-6 drive, fairly cheap and very useful in combat, almost mandatory. I didn't manage J-4 without severely compromising combat performance.


(snippage)

GAGH. Just noticed this, apologies. I LIKE the M-6, very nice, and I take your earlier point regarding Zho designs and their love of fighters in everything, including, by the look of it, the dessert course ;)

J-3 is about good enough for it, agreed J-4 would be better!

What did you use to design this?

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599958)
What did you use to design this?

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=38848

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599957)
The Badreapr class DS is the Zhodani answer to a deep-penetration destroyer, tasked with sneaking into a target system and having "a quick shufti" to see what's there to oppose an attacking force. It has no need of traditional missile armaments, and will do its best to stay out of the range of missiles, favouring it's particle accelerator to keep at beyond stand-off ranges while it prepared to jump out of trouble. It carries marines for boarding actions against lesser-capable opponents, and to perform reconnaissance missions, using the 50-ton armed cutters to ferry them to and from their insertion and extraction points (dropping them in orbit using grav-chute-equipped orbital personal re-entry kits if necessary; see MegaTraveller Journal 3 page 74, (c) DGP March 1992).

Code:

Ship: Badreapr
Class: Badreapr
Type: Strike Destroyer
Architect: Roger Stenning
Tech Level: 14

USP
        DS-E1347D5-200103-70900-0 MCr 4,971.818 5 KTons
Bat Bear                1 1 3    Crew: 102
Bat                      1 1 3    TL: 14


I would call this way too big and expensive for something that can't fight. It is also unable to retreat without refuelling, even an SDB or two could prevent that.

With CT I would use something like this:
J-3, but J-4 fuel, so it can do J-2, look around, and jump out again.
M-6, Size A, max computer so it is difficult to hit.
Armour 4 so it is safe from Internal Explosions.
Minimal Screens to guard against nasty surprises, such as Meson Bays.
Only Agility-2, but Emergency Agility-6 to be able to run away.
Single batteries to require lots of hits to suppress it.
Basically only large factor nuke missile batteries (and spinals) can really hurt it.
Code:

FS-A1366H2-474400-55007-0      MCr 1 727      1 900 Dton
bearing    1    11  1                          Crew=41
batteries  1    11  1                            TL=14
            Troops=10 Cargo=236 Fuel=684 EP=114 Agility=2

Dual Occupancy                                    236,3    1727,4
                                    USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull                Custom            A          1900         
Configuration      Needle/Wedge      1                      228
Scoops              Streamlined                              1,9
Armour              4                  4            95      66,5
                                                               
Jump Drive                            3    1        76      304
Manoeuvre D                            6    1      323    161,5
Power Plant                            6    1      228      684
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-3, 4 weeks            3      684         
Purifier                                    1      13,7      0,1
                                                               
Bridge                                      1        38      9,5
Computer            m/8fib            H    1        22      140
                                                               
Staterooms                                  6        24        3
Staterooms, Half                          45        90      11,3
                                                               
Cargo                                            236,3         
Collapsible Tanks  200 Dton                1        2      0,1
                                                               
Turret-3 Missile    10 Turrets        7    1        10      22,5
Turret-3 Beam      2 Turrets          5    1        2        6
Turret-1 Fusion    1 Turret          5    1        2        2
Turret-3 Sand      4 Turrets          7    1        4        3
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                        4    1        8        30
Meson Screen                          4    1        16        40
                                                               
Launch              20 Dton                1        26      14,1
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 1727,4          Sum:              1727,4
Class Cost          MCr  359,81        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost          MCr 1384,72                                 
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &              High    0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid    0          41      Engineers    7
                      Low    0                    Gunners    17
                Extra SR    0      Frozen        Service    4
              # Frozen W    0          0          Flight    3
                  Marines    10                    Marines    10

Change the missile battery to a missile bay for increased offensive power, but that costs nearly all the cargo space.

Redcap March 11th, 2019 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599962)

Oooooo works with LibreOffice :) Neat :)

Redcap March 11th, 2019 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599971)
I would call this way too big and expensive for something that can't fight. It is also unable to retreat without refuelling, even an SDB or two could prevent that.

With CT I would use something like this:
J-3, but J-4 fuel, so it can do J-2, look around, and jump out again.
M-6, Size A, max computer so it is difficult to hit.
Armour 4 so it is safe from Internal Explosions.
Minimal Screens to guard against nasty surprises, such as Meson Bays.
Only Agility-2, but Emergency Agility-6 to be able to run away.
Single batteries to require lots of hits to suppress it.
Basically only large factor nuke missile batteries (and spinals) can really hurt it.

(Snipetty snip snip snip)

Change the missile battery to a missile bay for increased offensive power, but that costs nearly all the cargo space.

Hmm. More a corvette (see https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Stalwart_class_Corvette ) than a destroyer, imho, but I get the idea.

OK, lets look at this from another view. I need a Zho ship that can get into a system from a distance of minimum J-3; it must be reasonably militarily agile, and while on extended operations away from resupply of munitions, have an effective one-two punch to at least its own weight, preferably one level above, for at least two major engagements without using missiles it cannot resupply without abandoning its mission early, and be able to GTFO again on the hurry-up if necessary. It must have the ability to launch boarding parties, and be capable of conducting a full reconnoitre without drawing unwelcome attention on itself. Endurance-wise, it must have the capability to operate at longer distances than usual from its base of operations or fleet, so should figure on holding two months of supplies for its crew at the minimum.

I'm thinking that this might fit into the classic definition of a pocket battle cruiser (Real world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsc...lass_cruiser)? Thoughts?

mike wightman March 11th, 2019 02:54 PM

I haven't checked this so I will edit this post later if necessary, but off the top of my head the 'canon' sources for Zhodani ships would be GURPS Traveller, Power Projection: Fleet and Squadron Strike: Traveller.

The Zhodani fleet is listed as:
1 Viepchakl BB
2 Kefchenzh CA
2 Zhdavidlits CL
8 Zhdiak DH

I'll have to go dig out the books to get the stats for the Zhdiak DH

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599975)
Hmm. More a corvette (see https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Stalwart_class_Corvette ) than a destroyer, imho, but I get the idea.

I use corvette for <1000 Dt, frigate for <~3000 Dt. YMMV.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599975)
OK, lets look at this from another view. I need a Zho ship that can get into a system from a distance of minimum J-3; it must be reasonably militarily agile, and while on extended operations away from resupply of munitions, have an effective one-two punch to at least its own weight, preferably one level above, for at least two major engagements ...

Presuming MgT2 the major kill-vectors are spinals, missiles, and fighters.

A Panzerschiff is a baby capital ship, so presumably a spinal, and much larger than a destroyer. I think we can build a reasonable ship with a minimal spinal at about 30 kDt.

How about a mini-carrier with stealthed fighters? It can get into and out of systems with minimal risk of detection, and send stealthed fighters to scan the system without risking the ship. The fighters still pack a considerable punch, much better than a few bays.

Something like this:
6000 Dt, J-3, M-6, not combat capable, MCr 5200.
Stealthed hull, Stealth jump drive.
Drop tank capable to be able to jump into a system with full tanks.
Plenty of space for people and cargo.
Capacity for 20 small craft of 35 Dt, e.g. 16 fighter/sensors and 4 utility/boarding craft.
https://i.imgur.com/9AiqBjL.png

https://i.imgur.com/vBW5Vra.png


The fighters should be able to kill a destroyer. Not even remotely optimised, but should work?

Redcap March 11th, 2019 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 599985)
I haven't checked this so I will edit this post later if necessary, but off the top of my head the 'canon' sources for Zhodani ships would be GURPS Traveller, Power Projection: Fleet and Squadron Strike: Traveller.

The Zhodani fleet is listed as:
1 Viepchakl BB
2 Kefchenzh CA
2 Zhdavidlits CL
8 Zhdiak DH

I'll have to go dig out the books to get the stats for the Zhdiak DH

Huh. The Zhdiak looks a little like that ship on Stargate: Universe :rofl: Anyhow, I've had a quick look at the wiki on it, but it's a little light.

The Zhdavidlits is somewhat bigger than I'd like, the Kefchenzh is waaaaaay too big (14,000 tons?!), ditto the Viepchakl (200,000 tons?! WOW).

So, no joy there, sadly, but even so, thanks for replying :)

Redcap March 11th, 2019 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599990)
I use corvette for <1000 Dt, frigate for <~3000 Dt. YMMV.



Presuming MgT2 the major kill-vectors are spinals, missiles, and fighters.

A Panzerschiff is a baby capital ship, so presumably a spinal, and much larger than a destroyer. I think we can build a reasonable ship with a minimal spinal at about 30 kDt.

How about a mini-carrier with stealthed fighters? It can get into and out of systems with minimal risk of detection, and send stealthed fighters to scan the system without risking the ship. The fighters still pack a considerable punch, much better than a few bays.

Something like this:
6000 Dt, J-3, M-6, not combat capable, MCr 5200.
Stealthed hull, Stealth jump drive.
Drop tank capable to be able to jump into a system with full tanks.
Plenty of space for people and cargo.
Capacity for 20 small craft of 35 Dt, e.g. 16 fighter/sensors and 4 utility/boarding craft.

(Snippety snip snip snip)

The fighters should be able to kill a destroyer. Not even remotely optimised, but should work?

Hmm. There's an evil idea... I am a tad leery on the idea of sending a carrier into an unknown place on its todd, but even so, that's a remarkably ballsy idea... and not a little out of the box, too, come to think of it. "Would, though, the Zho's do this?" is the next question, mind you :)

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 599985)
I haven't checked this so I will edit this post later if necessary, but off the top of my head the 'canon' sources for Zhodani ships would be GURPS Traveller, Power Projection: Fleet and Squadron Strike: Traveller.

The Shivva class is a staple from CT. It is a small ship carrying light fighters.

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599992)
"Would, though, the Zho's do this?" is the next question, mind you :)

See Shivva, the standard Zho light patrol ship.

Redcap March 11th, 2019 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599993)
The Shivva class is a staple from CT. It is a small ship carrying light fighters.

I considered, and discounted, a single Shivva class as being way way waaaaay the heck out of it's operating parameters doing this kinda thing. Pity, because the illustrations are well whacky :)

Redcap March 11th, 2019 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599994)
See Shivva, the standard Zho light patrol ship.

Heh, see above. I'm of the opinion that it would be well out of place; only what, 700dT? With armaments that couldn't even kill a Chrysanthamum easily?

Redcap March 11th, 2019 04:04 PM

Y'know, the more I think about it, IS there such a thing as a Destroyer, Carrier, Light? I mean a destroyer-sized ship with at least a ten-ship or more flight of fighters it can launch, within the 5,000-10,000 dT bracket, that can also pack a wallop in addition to its fighters?

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599999)
Y'know, the more I think about it, IS there such a thing as a Destroyer, Carrier, Light?

That is not a strange idea, but we have to go to docking clamps to carry the fighters externally:

6000 Dt, J-3, M-6, Armour 14, Hull 2900, MCr 6800 (incl. fighters).
Survivable in combat, but main weapon is the fighters.
Stealthed hull, stealth jump drive.
Carries 18 stealthed fighters externally and 2 internally (for repairs).
60 modular hardpoints that can carry any barbettes or turret, here
_ 30 Particle barbettes and
_ 30 laser turrets.
1 Aux. bridge/Sub-command centre.
2 Sub-command centres.

https://i.imgur.com/IGTwMS6.png

https://i.imgur.com/g2eIsfG.png


Stealth fighter with reasonable sensors:
35 Dt, M-9, R-16, Armour 14, Hull 17, MCr 86
Fully stealthed, military sensors, any barbette e.g. fusion barbette.
Small 4 Dt cargo hold that can carry reaction fuel, 16 passengers, or cargo.
https://i.imgur.com/PUizk21.png

Redcap March 11th, 2019 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 600005)
(MAHOOSIVE snippage)


Interesting. Replace particle barbettes with laser turrets for CIWS usage (point defence), increase tonnage by a few hundred to create space for PA bays and repulsors, maybe add a black globe?

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 600007)
Interesting. Replace particle barbettes with laser turrets for CIWS usage (point defence), increase tonnage by a few hundred to create space for PA bays and repulsors, maybe add a black globe?

Particle barbettes are good against fighters and ships. Lasers are good against missiles.

Repulsors (tractor beams) are not a standard component in MgT2 anymore.

PA bays only do a little more damage than PA barbettes, they are not very size-effective. More fighters are more effective.

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599995)
I considered, and discounted, a single Shivva class as being way way waaaaay the heck out of it's operating parameters doing this kinda thing. Pity, because the illustrations are well whacky :)

Quite, it's too small, but it illustrates the concept: the Zho using a light carrier with fighters where the Impies would use a ship.

Redcap March 11th, 2019 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 600012)
Particle barbettes are good against fighters and ships. Lasers are good against missiles.

Repulsors (tractor beams) are not a standard component in MgT2 anymore.

PA bays only do a little more damage than PA barbettes, they are not very size-effective. More fighters are more effective.

Re Repulsors: Bugger, and other words. Why, oh why, oh bleedin' WHY did they dump those?!

Right, then. Leave the Laser turrets and PA barbettes where they be.

How about replacing the idea of using bay repulsors with a spinal PA instead, for longer range engagements?

Oh, and forget the black globe, use a nuclear damper instead?

AnotherDilbert March 11th, 2019 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 600016)
How about replacing the idea of using bay repulsors with a spinal PA instead, for longer range engagements?

Oh, and forget the black globe, use a nuclear damper instead?

A much larger ship is needed for a spinal, something like 30+ kDt. Note that particle barbette/bays have longer range than spinals.

Black Globes are TL15, so out of reach for the Zho, except possibly as very expensive prototypes.

My last designs has a few Dampers.

Redcap March 11th, 2019 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 600017)
A much larger ship is needed for a spinal, something like 30+ kDt. Note that particle barbette/bays have longer range than spinals.

Black Globes are TL15, so out of reach for the Zho, except possibly as very expensive prototypes.

My last designs has a few Dampers.

Yeah, d'oh. Been too long since I worked up a spinal design. Oops. My bad. :( I'm VERY surprised that the barbettes have longer ranges than the spinals, though - how in the hell did that happen?!

Yeah, I realised BGs were a non-starter for the Zho, only about ten minutes after I posted it. Oops. :rolleyes:

Dampeners, however, are a good idea, so those, we leave in ;)

GypsyComet March 11th, 2019 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 599999)
IS there such a thing as a Destroyer, Carrier, Light?

SFB refers to this idea as an Escort Carrier. I suspect they would be relatively common in the Zhodani fleets of the Frontier Wars period since they fit the Zhodani naval doctrine. In SFB they serve as both *really* light carriers and as extra berths to increase the refuel-reload rate of an accompanied full carrier.

A Zhodani design would probably sit in the 5k to 8k dton range and carry one squadron with an extended resupply allotment. As the Zhodani appear to be equally at home with internal and external mooring I would provide both at full capacity and up-engine the ship slightly, allowing it to give an entire second squadron a ride if circumstances require, or be able to dock and resupply (or run with) their entire compliment easily during an engagement.

Redcap March 12th, 2019 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyComet (Post 600027)
SFB refers to this idea as an Escort Carrier. I suspect they would be relatively common in the Zhodani fleets of the Frontier Wars period since they fit the Zhodani naval doctrine. In SFB they serve as both *really* light carriers and as extra berths to increase the refuel-reload rate of an accompanied full carrier.

A Zhodani design would probably sit in the 5k to 8k dton range and carry one squadron with an extended resupply allotment. As the Zhodani appear to be equally at home with internal and external mooring I would provide both at full capacity and up-engine the ship slightly, allowing it to give an entire second squadron a ride if circumstances require, or be able to dock and resupply (or run with) their entire compliment easily during an engagement.

This brings up another question: How big is a Zho fighter squadron?

Maksim-Smelchak March 12th, 2019 11:24 AM

I see at least 8 destroyer or destroyer like classes at the wiki:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Destroyer

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Zhodani_Navy

Hope that helps.

Shalom,
M.

Maksim-Smelchak March 12th, 2019 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcap (Post 600032)
This brings up another question: How big is a Zho fighter squadron?

Good question. There are several, mostly conflicting answers spread throughout canon.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Redcap March 12th, 2019 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maksim-Smelchak (Post 600045)
Good question. There are several, mostly conflicting answers spread throughout canon.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Fiddlesticks. I was afraid of that.

Fine. I'll go with the Red Air Force Frontal Aviation fighter squadron standard, then. I'm at work right now, so I'll check that size when I get home.

Condottiere March 12th, 2019 05:26 PM

Span of control.

There might also be some cultural significant number in Zhodani psychology.

Pretty much how a squadron in Vargr terms would be how many pilots will follow you.

Redcap March 12th, 2019 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Condottiere (Post 600060)
Span of control.

There might also be some cultural significant number in Zhodani psychology.

Pretty much how a squadron in Vargr terms would be how many pilots will follow you.

Possibly, but given that the Zhodani were the Soviets to the Imperium being the USA (don't forget that "Fear the big red bear!" translated rather nicely to "Fear the mind-peeping Zhos!" back in the real-world Cold War days of Traveller!), I'm going to go with the Sov format (this being, in fighter squadrons of, for example, MiG-23s, 8 x MiG-23 fighters and 4 x MiG-23U tandem-two-seat trainers that could double as twin crew fighters).

So, the standard Fighter Sqn of Zhos is going to be 12 fighter ships; training/mission simulators are bound to be good enough to dispense with twin-crew trainer fighters by this time, so there will be no tandem cockpit craft.

Thus a Zho light attack carrier should be able to easily carry twelve parasitic fighters with ease.

AnotherDilbert March 13th, 2019 07:10 AM

OK, how about this:

7000 Dt, J-3, M-6, Armour 14, Hull 3388, MCr 7650 (incl. fighters)
Carries 2 squadrons of fighters externally + 2 utility craft internally. (A one squadron carrier is only marginally cheaper.)
Enough UNREP equipment to refuel one squadron per round.
Modular turrets, can mount up to 70 of any turret or barbette, here with
_ 34 Particle barbettes (Accurate),
_ 34 triple laser turrets (Long Range),
_ _2 fixed mounts with missile racks/sandcaster to launch chaff and missile drones.
While dropping a drop tank it can do a J-3 and arrive with tanks full.
While keeping a drop tank it can do 2 J-2.
It has a Fuel/Cargo container so can carry less fuel (J-2) and get an additional 777 Dt cargo, for a total of just over 1000 Dt cargo.
The M-drive is dimensioned for the ship only, so it has
_ 6 g with no external load for combat,
_ 5 g carrying external fighters,
_ 4 g carrying fighters and a drop tank.
Nominal crew of 220, including flight crew and 50 troops. Life support capacity max 260 people.


https://i.imgur.com/gSDN7P2.png

https://i.imgur.com/UPAw5T2.png


Stealth fighter:
35.5 Dt, M-9, Reaction-16, Armour 14, Hull 17, MCr 81
Can mount any barbette.
Small cargo space with either 7 turns reaction fuel, 16 people, or 4 Dt cargo.

https://i.imgur.com/T8ibO9H.png

Redcap March 13th, 2019 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 600069)
OK, how about this:

(Snippage, carrier)

(Snippage, stealth fighter)

YES! Thanks, that's hit the mark perfectly :D

Qstor2 May 8th, 2019 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 599945)
I can't recall any official MgT2 designs.

How about this, as a reimagined Vlezhdatl "Strike Cruiser":

2500 Dt.

Out of curiosity..the CT version is 2,000 tons. Why did you increase the size to 2,500 tons?

AnotherDilbert May 9th, 2019 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qstor2 (Post 601529)
Out of curiosity..the CT version is 2,000 tons. Why did you increase the size to 2,500 tons?

While it was only two months ago, I don't recall the exact reasoning...

I would guess I wanted it larger than 2000 Dt to be immune to crits from turrets.

It is also quite densely packed so I probably needed the size to fit all the large systems, such as bays. Note the limited crew quarters.


To make it a more well-adjusted MgT2 design I would probably drop the bays and add more external fighters.

Maksim-Smelchak May 9th, 2019 02:24 PM

All existing Zho designs researched to date are on this list:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Zhodani_Navy

Shalom,
M.


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