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-   -   Retclone critical situation throw (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=37789)

mike wightman June 4th, 2017 03:23 PM

Retclone critical situation throw
 
As I posted in the skills thread, my thinking is that skills are more than just 'skills' - they are a measure of training, experience, and yes, skill. They should be broad and applicable in many situations, not just the situation the skill name suggests.

Nor do I think you should be using skills as 'tasks' - players should role play and the referee and players only turn to the dice to resolve a critical situation.
In a critical situation the player or referee could find an unexpected reason why a particular skill could affect the outcome.

To that end there is no task system, rather there should be a referee's guide to resolving a critical situation involving a throw of the dice.

The referee should decide on the target number - but should be armed with the % chance of success table, i.e. the referee should be aware of the odds.

The DMs should be a result of negotiation and the player's roleplaying.

This sums it up:
Quote:

2D6 +/- DM ≥ Throw Value equals success
which is a quote from creativehum/CK

Saving throw system.
In uncertain critical situations the referee may call for the player to make a saving throw in order to overcome the adversity.
The throw is made on 2d, with DMs based on skill, characteristics, prior experience, environmental circumstances, and any specialist tools needed for the throw.
It is for the referee to decide on the target number for the throw to be equalled or exceeded, and the exact value of any DM (whether it is beneficial or a hindrance) from the above factors. The referee may alternatively decide that a successful outcome occurs if the throw is less than or equal to the target.
In the following skill descriptions examples of saving throws and DMs are provided to guide a referee, but an experienced referee should be free to determine the saving throw target number and DM values to suit the particular circumstance.
<Insert skill descriptions and sample throws.>
Remember what followed the skills in CT?
Quote:

Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an important part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situation dictates.

Clone95 June 4th, 2017 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 567332)
To that end there is no task system, rather there should be a referee's guide to resolving a critical situation involving a throw of the dice.

The referee should decide on the target number - but should be armed with the % chance of success table, i.e. the referee should be aware of the odds.

The DMs should be a result of negotiation and the player's roleplaying.

Is this not what a task system is, or literally what any roleplaying game is?

kilemall June 5th, 2017 12:11 AM

Ok, that's your view.

The original CT had all sorts of odd resolution rolls built in.

So if you go critical/roleplay and forego the odd rolls, that's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be labelled retclone, it would be it's own thing.

aramis June 5th, 2017 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 567363)
Ok, that's your view.

The original CT had all sorts of odd resolution rolls built in.

So if you go critical/roleplay and forego the odd rolls, that's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be labelled retclone, it would be it's own thing.

There's actually a better term for such things - Pseudoclone. Retroclone mindset, but making some significant changes.

kilemall June 5th, 2017 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 567367)
There's actually a better term for such things - Pseudoclone. Retroclone mindset, but making some significant changes.

Sounds fine to me, just not appropriate to make interpreted changes and then claim authenticity.

aramis June 5th, 2017 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 567370)
Sounds fine to me, just not appropriate to make interpreted changes and then claim authenticity.

I Fully agree. Tho judging from some of his posts, he's essentially attempting recreate what may have been his misinterpretations from his youth...

My read of it is "Trim the number of skills to the point where they function more like classes than skills"...

ShawnDriscoll June 6th, 2017 12:05 AM

It's the old game system topic of skill rolls vs save rolls for tabletop adventure games.

creativehum June 9th, 2017 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 567363)
Ok, that's your view.

The original CT had all sorts of odd resolution rolls built in.

So if you go critical/roleplay and forego the odd rolls, that's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be labelled retclone, it would be it's own thing.

I'm confused. Are you saying the original rules weren't about using Throws for critical situations, with skills applied to Throws on a situational basis based off roleplayd detailed, using the Throws listed in the skill descriptions as examples?

kilemall June 9th, 2017 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creativehum (Post 567558)
I'm confused. Are you saying the original rules weren't about using Throws for critical situations, with skills applied to Throws on a situational basis based off roleplayd detailed, using the Throws listed in the skill descriptions as examples?

I am not gainsaying the process of 'negotiated DMs' or the expressed avoidance of a task system such as what later versions or homebrews bolted on, especially later versions that tend to force Roll Playing. Both are opinions and perfectly valid approaches to reffing.

What I am saying is that if one is to qualify a version as truly retclone, then it should have all those quirky rolls, some of which certainly are skill/task sort of rolls and NOT just saving throws.

Else one is doing a CE version of a personal vision of what CT was/is- which is fine, I just don't think it deserves the title retclone.

creativehum June 9th, 2017 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 567559)
I am not gainsaying the process of 'negotiated DMs' or the expressed avoidance of a task system such as what later versions or homebrews bolted on, especially later versions that tend to force Roll Playing. Both are opinions and perfectly valid approaches to reffing.

What I am saying is that if one is to qualify a version as truly retclone, then it should have all those quirky rolls, some of which certainly are skill/task sort of rolls and NOT just saving throws.

Else one is doing a CE version of a personal vision of what CT was/is- which is fine, I just don't think it deserves the title retclone.

Cool.

I was asking because when I read the skill list in the 1977* edition of Book 1 I see that 13 of the 22 Throws** listed are defined by avoiding-things-going-wrong in one way or another. (I'm including things like Forgery and Gambling here, where failure to avoid detection by definition means something will go wrong, as well skills like Leadership in which failure can lead to things going wrong.) As for the other 9 without doubt the examples fall outside the need of crisis... but as a Referee I'm not sure why I would introduce rolls outside of a crisis.

I say this because as Book 1 states: "A newly generated character is singularly unequipped to deal with the adventuring world, having neither the expertise nor the experience necessary for the active life."

So I assume PCs are relatively accomplished and competent at one they do. If a PC has Admin-1 I'm probably not going to make the Player make a Throw simply because he's doing something that can tap Admin. Admin-1 means, in my view, he can handle most Admin situations that don't involve special circumstances. And generally, in my games at least, special circumstances involve some sort of crisis. (He is being observed; failure will lead to heavy-duty trouble from the authorities; and so on.) In other words, I am applying the logic of the 13 skill descriptions I mentioned above to most situations. Because for the most part I assume that if there is no pressure, given enough time and no stress, a PC can pretty much do what he was trained to do.

Finally, on p. 20 of Book 1 (1977) there is this passage:

Quote:

Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an important part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situation dictates.
[ -- emphasis added]

The passage above was cut from every other edition from Basic Traveller. Which I think is a shame since it nails down (in my view at least) the philosophy and practice of play the original Classic Traveller rules depend on. With th text above one isn't looking for a unified task system because the game isn't lacking one. It's a loosey-goosey system for the Referee to make up significant rolls as reacquired. And, specifically, it says the skill descriptions are guides to be "followed, altered or ignored" per actual situations at the table -- not set in stone applications of the rules.

All of this is to say: None of this concretely supports or refutes how either you are I approach the text. But I think a good faith argument can be made, given the text above, that Mike is precisely approaching the game in its original intent and not at all redefining everything to some personal vision.

________
* I'm using the 1977 rules because we're tossing around the term "retro-clone" -- and as far as I'm concerned this is the edition one would want to clone if one is going retro.

** I am using the term Throw, which is the term used from Book 1.


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