Citizens of the Imperium

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trader jim August 21st, 2002 12:58 PM

what is the twilight 2000 combat system like??
is it RPG or miniatures or bothe or what?? the system sounds interesting - although maby out of date but still usable.

Uncle Bob August 23rd, 2002 11:49 AM

It has been ten years since I played it, and I can't find my books, so don't hold me to details, but...

I never used it with miniatures, but strictly as a roleplaying system. In fact, after the collapse of the Soviet Block Murph used the rules for a home brew espionage/Cthulu game we called "Twilight 1990".

Murph eventually switched to Cyberpunk rules, but I still consider (the original, not the later House) TW2000 rules to be the finest contemporary combat system on the market. As for being dated, some small changes would have to be made to the weapons lists (Russian thermobaric weapons, AT-4s instead of LAWs, no CAWS (*sniff*), etc) but less than you'd think. Very hard to munchkin, too.

Of course, being contemporary military combat there are guns, guns, guns, and more GUNS. [img]graemlins/file_22.gif[/img]

vegascat August 23rd, 2002 12:49 PM

I did a couple of years of T2000 as a GM. The combat system was quite detailed, but led to Rambo syndrome. I had guys hit 10 or more time each still effective by the rules. Of course some did die, but not too many.
Game ended by a Darwin suicide. They tried to hijack a fuel convoy to get gas for their M1. They hid in a ditch beside a road ready for the convoy. A guy opened fire with a LAW at the lead APC. Missed so bad he hit the tanker right beside the ditch, bursting it. No one survived the flaming fuel that filled the ditch as they tried to get out. [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]
As I recall, it was a percentile based system. don't have the books with me, or I would check for you.
Vehicle damage system was great, weapons were quite detailed and armor worked to. Other than the Rambo Syndrome, it was a usable system.

vegascat August 23rd, 2002 12:55 PM

To answer your question, it is a RPG combat system that can use minatures. To use it for a minatures battle, you would find it excessively detailed in the damage tables. The Rambo syndrome again kicks in. When you hit, you rolled damage, number of die depending on the weapon. The armor subtracted from the damage, then each vehicle system hit subtracted some more. You could easily hit a tank, penatrate, and not hurt anyone inside, other than fragging the radio and other nonessentials. It was a bit unrealistic that way.

Herodotus August 23rd, 2002 02:00 PM

If you've ever palyed Traveller, The New Era You've used the same combat system as Twilight: 2000 . It was the rule system that GDW had been using as their house rules at the end.
I did come up with a way to reduce the "Rambo effect". I changed the damage dice form six siders to ten siders. I also made the dice rolls "Open ended". By that I mean, if any of the dice that were rolled where a 10, you got to reroll that (or those) die (dice) again and add them to the total damage. If any of the rerolled dice where tens, you got to roll them again! And so one, and so on. It still takes many more hits then is resonable to kill someone, but it cuts down on the mad charges on the heavy machinegun positions. For a more realistic campagin I cut down the number of hit points of a given wound level.

Uncle Bob August 23rd, 2002 07:58 PM

Twilight 2000 2nd edition was the first set of rules corrupted into the awful "house system." I know a lot of players think that was the Twilight 2000.

Under 1st Edition rules we didn't have a problem with the Rambo syndrome. Did anyone else?

Herodotus August 23rd, 2002 08:30 PM

Actually I did play the first addition rules. I much prefured their vehical rules to the second edition. But the first adition where just about as vunerable to the "Rambo Effect" if you ran them as writen. Character's could take a huge number of hits before it really started to slow them down. I did modafie them so that your hit points for an area were all your hit points for that area. Also the "three shot" ammo rules were annoying. You are in a low ammo supply environment, yet you can't take a shot that uses less than three rounds of ammo? A good sniper would just cringe at that rule.
I actually prefured the second addition rules for most things. I like games where stats make a real difference. In the first rules, due to the way characters were created, the worse the stats, the better the character. ;)
I think I would have liked to see something half way between the first and second addition rules :D

Herodotus August 24th, 2002 12:23 PM

You'll have to pardon the spelling and grammar in the previous post. My spelling and grammar are poor, at best. under normal circumstances. I tried to write that last post while being involved in two different chats on-line and talking to someone in the room with me, all at the same time. Not a good idea for me :D . I actually hit "Add Reply" instead of "Preview Post". Also not a good thing for me to do [img]smile.gif[/img] .

I would also like to mention that I liked the history for the setting in the first edition much better than any of the versions they came out with in later editions. I actually kept the orginal story regardless of which version of T2K I was running :D . Unfortunetly, someone walked off with my first edition or T2K and I no longer have that. If any one knows where I could find a copy of the history for first edition I would be very greatful! [img]graemlins/omega.gif[/img]

Uncle Bob August 24th, 2002 03:44 PM

The three-round fire rules bothered me at first, but some combat veterans eventually convinced me that it came pretty close to how fire-arms combat actually happens. Even if you are worrying about ammo you'll keep squeezing if you have a target.

There does need to be a seperate set of sniper rules, but it makes far more sense to make the basic rules cover the other 90% of combat and combatants.

I need to dig out my rules and notes and see why didn't have Rambo problems. However, most small arms wounds are not immediately lethal or even disabling. This is a lesson every deer hunter learns and the US Army is relearning in Afghanistan. Of course, if you let them shoot holes in you you may die tommorrow or next week, and you certainly won't be any good to the party.

Clay r bush August 27th, 2002 08:41 PM

Re: Rambo effect
DARK CONSPIRACY carried forward the house system. The second, post-GDW edition revised the hit point formulas. It roughly halved the number of hit points

I used this modification when I ran several adventures at GenCons. I ran several mercenary T2K adventures set in the real world, without a WWIII. I also ran a series of STARGATE adventures, and a handful of actual DARK CONSPIRACY adventures. The modification did improve the game.

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