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-   -   Low Berths (revised) (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=39653)

Rerednaw December 14th, 2018 05:18 PM

Low Berths (revised)
 
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

I also created more advanced versions of low berths which grant a positive DM at higher TLs.

TL 12 Low Berth 75kCr +1 DM to survival roll. Same mass and other characteristics.
TL 15 Low Berth 100kCr +2 DM to survival roll. As above.

Granted the economics of low passengers are a bit wiggy. When building a ship, cargo space costs zero credits extra versus the cost of a low-berth. And at base 1000 Cr base per ton of cargo you are making credits back much sooner. Whereas with low berths you don't even break even for years (assuming 1 jump per month).

timerover51 December 14th, 2018 07:55 PM

I am looking at the low berth as a way for colonists to move animals to a new planet, so I like your approach. Basically, the low berth approximates a 5 foot by 5 foot by 10 foot box (sorry, my mind still operates on the English system, and so do some planets in the new sector), so can carry a fairly wide range of domestic stock. Larger ones are needed for larger animals like elephants, giraffes, adult draft horses and cattle, etc. Yes, I am moving African fauna to a colonized planet, while others are using draft horses and mules for farming.

Remember, animals reproduce, do not require spare parts, and can help to raise what they eat, along with supplying a wide range of eatables and additional materials. It makes sense for a colony that has a reasonable planet to settle on to use animals for the initial agricultural effort.

wellis December 14th, 2018 08:40 PM

You think said animals might be genetically modified in some way as well?

timerover51 December 14th, 2018 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wellis (Post 596566)
You think said animals might be genetically modified in some way as well?

Actually, I am more concerned with having enough non-modified wild animals for adequate breeding stock. I am considering setting up one planet as a Krell Zoo of Terran animals as a wild life reserve, especially for Africa. I already have the Krell adding Terran river, sea, and ocean life to various planets, as Altair IV looked in the movie to be fairly arid, as presumably the expedition ship would have landed in the most favorable location available. I assume that the Krell would have been absolutely blown away by the incredible variety of marine life on Terra, along with the wide range of vegetation and animal life.

For those who do not know who the "Krell" are, I suggest that you look up the movie "Forbidden Planet".

Domestic livestock have already been pretty heavily genetically modified, except for maybe the Texas Longhorns running loose on El Paso and New Texas. The El Paso breed produce much better leather than the New Texas breed, as the climate is a bit harsher on El Paso. The residents of El Paso view New Texans as a bit "sissified".

Grav_Moped December 15th, 2018 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

I also created more advanced versions of low berths which grant a positive DM at higher TLs.

TL 12 Low Berth 75kCr +1 DM to survival roll. Same mass and other characteristics.
TL 15 Low Berth 100kCr +2 DM to survival roll. As above.

Consider the option of applying damage to INT or EDU as well (that is, brain damage). For the sake of playability, maybe make damage to physical stats more likely than damage to mental stats, or splitting the 1D damage between INT and EDU (and allowing partial recovery, eventually).

That said, coming out of cold sleep with partial amnesia could be a useful plot hook.

kilemall December 15th, 2018 05:59 PM

OP, I've done the same thing with similar probabilities.


Don't forget small children, often parents will buy a passage for the children while one or both parents go Low Passage to save money while not risking their precious offspring.



So you could have an orphan at the end of a journey.


Also of course the steward could find an unaccompanied child to be the most challenging passenger to manage. I'd definitely require a High Passage for such circumstances.

McPerth December 15th, 2018 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

I also created more advanced versions of low berths which grant a positive DM at higher TLs.

TL 12 Low Berth 75kCr +1 DM to survival roll. Same mass and other characteristics.
TL 15 Low Berth 100kCr +2 DM to survival roll. As above.

Of course that makes them quite more survivable.

See that any such changes in the low berths (incuding the one from CT to MT, that lowered manyfold the death possibility) has also strategic significance.

In CT, you cannot move troops in low berths, as you would have about 8-10% fatality rate before entering in combat, while in MT you could do it, as the fatality rate was nearly negligible, and most troops having some ill effects from it would be recovered in a matter of days.

In this aspect, your system seems more MT than CT...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Granted the economics of low passengers are a bit wiggy. When building a ship, cargo space costs zero credits extra versus the cost of a low-berth. And at base 1000 Cr base per ton of cargo you are making credits back much sooner. Whereas with low berths you don't even break even for years (assuming 1 jump per month).

Most starship economics are based on 2 jumps per month. A ton deicated at low berths would give you Cr 1800/jump (once life support is deducted), so he benefit over cargo is Cr 800/jump.

As they cost Cr 50000, you'll break even in about 60 jumps, or a little over 2 years...

Rerednaw December 15th, 2018 08:25 PM

I never really liked the concept of hibernation pods with a 1 in 6 (5+) mortality rate. I mean why have them at all? Also for the 'Frozen Watch' concept so that's why I bumped up the survival rates. If this is in effect flying coach...I wouldn't want to fly if I was told 1 in 6 folks died on a given plane trip.

I do reserve the option of ability damage (healable and not for the insane creds normally set) based on if someone rolls a crit fail and has the appropriate risk factors.

So basically it is more of a viable option if you just want to get somewhere and don't have the credits.

And yes I also use low berths as the livestock option as well. Mainly small critters such as chickens and rabbits though. They are easier to care for, and the production/break even point is sooner. Maybe a goat. Bovines are generally not as efficient.

But I'm getting a bit off topic.

timerover51 December 15th, 2018 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596607)
I never really liked the concept of hibernation pods with a 1 in 6 (5+) mortality rate. I mean why have them at all? Also for the 'Frozen Watch' concept so that's why I bumped up the survival rates. If this is in effect flying coach...I wouldn't want to fly if I was told 1 in 6 folks died on a given plane trip.

I do reserve the option of ability damage (healable and not for the insane creds normally set) based on if someone rolls a crit fail and has the appropriate risk factors.

So basically it is more of a viable option if you just want to get somewhere and don't have the credits.

And yes I also use low berths as the livestock option as well. Mainly small critters such as chickens and rabbits though. They are easier to care for, and the production/break even point is sooner. Maybe a goat. Bovines are generally not as efficient.

But I'm getting a bit off topic.

No, you are not getting off topic. One, low berths have many uses, just like Duct Tape. Second, it is amazing how much threads can wander as ideas are mentioned. I mentioned the livestock at that is what I will be using in my new sector, but I like your ideas of bumping up the survival rate. I would not be flying if the death rate was one in six either.

Enoki December 15th, 2018 11:10 PM

One thing I allow players to do with low berths is when these are used at a starport they have the option of hiring a low berth specialist in some cases to put passengers in or take them out.

The starport has to be an A or B and TL = A or better. They pay x hundred to thousand credits per berth for the specialist, but then they are absolved of any liability for injury as well as ensuring there's a near 100% rate of survival.

They are also free to charge passengers for this service if they want. The steward / ship's crew says "We can put you in and take you out, but for an extra thousand credits we'll hire the starport low berth specialist to do it..."

AnotherDilbert December 15th, 2018 11:18 PM

If Low Berths are quite safe and much cheaper than other options, they should be the standard option for interstellar travel, both commercially and for troops.


A bit boring for the travellers with no passengers in space, but very convenient for passengers: just go to sleep on Rhylanor, wake up on Regina a few weeks later, without having to spend a lot of time waiting in space.


The trade roll should be modified to generate more low passengers and less high and mid. Standard ships, such as Free Traders, would need to skip most of the staterooms and add a lot of Low Berths instead.

AnotherDilbert December 15th, 2018 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoki (Post 596612)
They pay x hundred to thousand credits per berth for the specialist, but then they are absolved of any liability for injury as well as ensuring there's a near 100% rate of survival.


Already considered:
Quote:

Originally Posted by LBB2, p5
Refunds or civil liability if a low passenger fails to survive the trip are not allowed.


wbuthod December 16th, 2018 01:55 PM

CTL-F "DUMAREST": 0 results
 
Low berths in the SF sources were for livestock. It was an act of financial desperation to offer to pay a captain to travel in them. And I can see obvious advantages for using low berths for livestock. I've hauled livestock in-game, but it was always live, and usually the source of grief or a complication to an existing situation.

I wonder why one doesn't just take a bunch of "Low" passengers, give them all fast drug plus a mild time-release sedative so that they can sleep for the duration. Rack'em, stack'em, and pack'em in bunks or tubes far more cramped than steerage or even low berth, nearly to the point of palletizing them. Very low life support load per pax. A two-week trip becomes a 6 hour power-nap.

At the destination, you unpack them, and administer fast drug antidote, then something to reverse the sedative. Revive them in a warm, reassuring and comfy, but clinical-looking space, then hand them their travel bag and show them the door to the main concourse. Heck, you could have them "decelerated, sedated and crated" by a service provider at the starport, and deliver them to another one at the destination port for revival.

Downsides: passengers with a resistance to either fast drug, or the sedative. Max time in the crate is 60 days, and If you don't have resources to fed or house them, there will be hard decisions to be made. Palletized lowpax would be a priority target for pirates that don't mind a little slavery profit.

kilemall December 16th, 2018 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbuthod (Post 596626)
Low berths in the SF sources were for livestock. It was an act of financial desperation to offer to pay a captain to travel in them. And I can see obvious advantages for using low berths for livestock. I've hauled livestock in-game, but it was always live, and usually the source of grief or a complication to an existing situation.

I wonder why one doesn't just take a bunch of "Low" passengers, give them all fast drug plus a mild time-release sedative so that they can sleep for the duration. Rack'em, stack'em, and pack'em in bunks or tubes far more cramped than steerage or even low berth, nearly to the point of palletizing them. Very low life support load per pax. A two-week trip becomes a 6 hour power-nap.

At the destination, you unpack them, and administer fast drug antidote, then something to reverse the sedative. Revive them in a warm, reassuring and comfy, but clinical-looking space, then hand them their travel bag and show them the door to the main concourse. Heck, you could have them "decelerated, sedated and crated" by a service provider at the starport, and deliver them to another one at the destination port for revival.

Downsides: passengers with a resistance to either fast drug, or the sedative. Max time in the crate is 60 days, and If you don't have resources to fed or house them, there will be hard decisions to be made. Palletized lowpax would be a priority target for pirates that don't mind a little slavery profit.


Got that covered too, call it 'warm passage'. Big option for colonial ships not wanting to pay high end life support costs even if they own the ship.


The problem commercially is that even with the 60:1 ratio you still have basic sweating and bodily waste going on, so they are going to go to the bathroom at least once even during a week long trip. Somebody has to diaper and clean that up, quite a bit more unpleasant work then a mid passage passenger.


Not to mention the passenger has to be secured, I mean strapped down, because they cannot possibly react to any 'bumps' or even vector changes without smashing into a wall or floor without being able to avoid or cushion the fall.


Then there is the scenario where the ship falls under attack or gets into some other trouble and you need them to be at normal speed and suited up.


Except under very controlled trust situations like fellow colonists, I don't see it as commercially viable.

McPerth December 16th, 2018 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbuthod (Post 596626)
I wonder why one doesn't just take a bunch of "Low" passengers, give them all fast drug plus a mild time-release sedative so that they can sleep for the duration. Rack'em, stack'em, and pack'em in bunks or tubes far more cramped than steerage or even low berth, nearly to the point of palletizing them. Very low life support load per pax. A two-week trip becomes a 6 hour power-nap.

At the destination, you unpack them, and administer fast drug antidote, then something to reverse the sedative. Revive them in a warm, reassuring and comfy, but clinical-looking space, then hand them their travel bag and show them the door to the main concourse. Heck, you could have them "decelerated, sedated and crated" by a service provider at the starport, and deliver them to another one at the destination port for revival.

Downsides: passengers with a resistance to either fast drug, or the sedative. Max time in the crate is 60 days, and If you don't have resources to fed or house them, there will be hard decisions to be made. Palletized lowpax would be a priority target for pirates that don't mind a little slavery profit.

Albeit for MT (but I guess also aplicable to CT, as their basics are quite close), TD#21 has an article about low berths that distinguishes among chill berths (TL 9-11), that really freeze the passenger, and the low berth (TL12+), that mainly keeps him in this hibernation state by the use of drugs (moslty fast drug/antidote), more or less as you say.

AnotherDilbert December 16th, 2018 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 596639)
The problem commercially is that even with the 60:1 ratio you still have basic sweating and bodily waste going on, so they are going to go to the bathroom at least once even during a week long trip. Somebody has to diaper and clean that up, quite a bit more unpleasant work then a mid passage passenger.

Fast Drug does not knock people out, they will still experience the time, at about 3 h per jump.

People will resent being stacked in boxes or kept in diapers.

We already have a reasonable model for keeping people for a few hour of travel:https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...8897cbc16f14-c

Of course, allowing this will make interstellar travel vastly cheaper. Packing in people ~10 per Dt (like current cattle class) a ticket would cost a few hundred, mostly for the Fast drug.

Major B December 16th, 2018 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 596613)
A bit boring for the travellers with no passengers in space, but very convenient for passengers: just go to sleep on Rhylanor, wake up on Regina a few weeks later, without having to spend a lot of time waiting in space.

Not so convenient though when you go to sleep on Rhylanor and instead of Regina, you wake up on Jae Tellona and are told you must work in the mines until you've earned enough to pay for your unfreezing.

wbuthod December 16th, 2018 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 596645)
Fast Drug does not knock people out, they will still experience the time, at about 3 h per jump.

People will resent being stacked in boxes or kept in diapers.

Well, I added the idea of a sedative, just this side of a medically induced coma, for that reason. It's three hours (I figure six for transfer, etc.) that they sleep through the journey. You can't resent what you can't perceive.

I see the protocol as: 1) Sedate. 2) Fast Drug. 3) 'Box'. 4) Transport. 5) Unbox. 6) Fast Antidote. 7) Reverse sedation.

Pax show up at their appointed check-in time, hand the steward their baggage, lie down on a couch, the steward administers a couple of injections or med patches. They then awaken on a similar couch in a different system two weeks later.

wbuthod December 16th, 2018 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major B (Post 596654)
Not so convenient though when you go to sleep on Rhylanor and instead of Regina, you wake up on Jae Tellona and are told you must work in the mines until you've earned enough to pay for your unfreezing.

It's a bonanza for slavers. I'd mail my itinerary and shipper tracking number to my insurance company, and some of my better armed pals.

wbuthod December 16th, 2018 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 596639)
even with the 60:1 ratio you still have basic sweating and bodily waste going on, so they are going to go to the bathroom at least once even during a week long trip.

This is six hours of sedated sleep from their perspective. I've been able to sleep twice that without soiling myself since I was a child. And I managed to go through a medically induced coma for two days without... no, I was catheterized for that, so I probably would have pissed myself. But I still on 1:1 time w/out fast drug.

timerover51 December 16th, 2018 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbuthod (Post 596656)
Well, I added the idea of a sedative, just this side of a medically induced coma, for that reason. It's three hours (I figure six for transfer, etc.) that they sleep through the journey. You can't resent what you can't perceive.

I see the protocol as: 1) Sedate. 2) Fast Drug. 3) 'Box'. 4) Transport. 5) Unbox. 6) Fast Antidote. 7) Reverse sedation.

Pax show up at their appointed check-in time, hand the steward their baggage, lie down on a couch, the steward administers a couple of injections or med patches. They then awaken on a similar couch in a different system two weeks later.

You will have a problem with drug allergies that the people do not know about until you have drugged them. I am not sure how the crew will like handling frozen corpses of that nature.

coliver988 December 17th, 2018 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timerover51 (Post 596663)
You will have a problem with drug allergies that the people do not know about until you have drugged them. I am not sure how the crew will like handling frozen corpses of that nature.

I'm fairly certain allergies would be checked prior to the trip.

I give platelets, and every single time they ask me about allergies - it hasn't changed in 20+ years but I suppose at some point it could change without me knowing, so in theory I suppose there could be unknown allergies.

That's one of the things about Traveller medical stuff: it seems stuck in the 70s. Give my my hypospray, darn it! I'm an RPG player, not a doctor!

kilemall December 17th, 2018 11:11 AM

Hmm, 60:1 ratio.


Again, you have to strap them in for their own protection. One misstep, they literally cannot balance themselves before they fall over and break something.


Let's say this drug is so powerful it slows down even germ or viral material from consuming/replicating to the same ratio on contact, so the body is protected from infections spreading at 60x the normal rate of the immune system. Not to mention rashes from waste elimination processes that take 3-5 hours.

Still doesn't stop external microbes from growing on the external sweat and environment, especially when you are running your air processing/filtering at a 60:1 lesser rate in concert with the reduced needs.

And simple things like dust settling which would be nothing on a normal moving human, would be a real problem, with each breath of slowly inhaled air getting 60x the normal intake of dust and eyeblinks clearing dust on the eyes 60x slower.

You are going to have to vacuum in and around these people every few days just to avoid them experiencing constant choking/coughing on dust and eye pain/inflammation, probably eye drops or goggle are in order.


Ya, no hassle stuff this Fast Drug.


So no I don't see it as a commercially viable avoid freezing low steerage with people just uncomfortably sitting on the equivalent of a bus/plane seat, even given that such a model requires no stateroom even for long flights.


At a minimum I think I would be charging 1 ton per Fast Passage, 1/2 for the seat and 1/2 for the medical/clean facilities to keep them unharmed, 1 Medic per ten passengers, an emergency Fast Antidote to get them into suits and out of harm's way if the ship is in trouble, and a laid-in margin of safety life support supply or emergency low berth to finish the jump plus one week.

Reduced stateroom and almost no life support overhead, drug costs both ways, medic stateroom and pay expense, a certain percentage to fund the emergency life support- I would say Fast Passage should come in at about Cr2500-3000.

With some chance of complications from the above issues, in most cases dealt with in minor treatement and/or rest, but certainly not a pleasant jet ride.


As to sedating, might avoid the personal discomfort but still requires more monitoring and maintenance then popsicles.

BlackBat242 December 17th, 2018 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilemall (Post 596674)
Hmm, 60:1 ratio.


Again, you have to strap them in for their own protection. One misstep, they literally cannot balance themselves before they fall over and break something.


Let's say this drug is so powerful it slows down even germ or viral material from consuming/replicating to the same ratio on contact, so the body is protected from infections spreading at 60x the normal rate of the immune system. Not to mention rashes from waste elimination processes that take 3-5 hours.

Still doesn't stop external microbes from growing on the external sweat and environment, especially when you are running your air processing/filtering at a 60:1 lesser rate in concert with the reduced needs.

And simple things like dust settling which would be nothing on a normal moving human, would be a real problem, with each breath of slowly inhaled air getting 60x the normal intake of dust and eyeblinks clearing dust on the eyes 60x slower.

You are going to have to vacuum in and around these people every few days just to avoid them experiencing constant choking/coughing on dust and eye pain/inflammation, probably eye drops or goggle are in order.


Ya, no hassle stuff this Fast Drug.


So no I don't see it as a commercially viable avoid freezing low steerage with people just uncomfortably sitting on the equivalent of a bus/plane seat, even given that such a model requires no stateroom even for long flights.


At a minimum I think I would be charging 1 ton per Fast Passage, 1/2 for the seat and 1/2 for the medical/clean facilities to keep them unharmed, 1 Medic per ten passengers, an emergency Fast Antidote to get them into suits and out of harm's way if the ship is in trouble, and a laid-in margin of safety life support supply or emergency low berth to finish the jump plus one week.

Reduced stateroom and almost no life support overhead, drug costs both ways, medic stateroom and pay expense, a certain percentage to fund the emergency life support- I would say Fast Passage should come in at about Cr2500-3000.

With some chance of complications from the above issues, in most cases dealt with in minor treatement and/or rest, but certainly not a pleasant jet ride.


As to sedating, might avoid the personal discomfort but still requires more monitoring and maintenance then popsicles.

Sigh.
1. no problem, done all the time with patients. Whoever handles medic duties for the ship will be proficient.

2a. Place sleeper in bio-bag, with filtered air supply. No microbe problem.
2b. Elimination is voluntary-controlled for 99%+ of the population - and space-suit-type elimination fittings take care of any involuntary. Anyone with vacc suit skill can fit them to the sleeper.

3. Simple anti-mocrobial spray on skin before bagging - and the bag is sterile inside.

4. Really? Never heard of breather masks that also cover the eyes (kinda like military gas masks) - if the bio-bag doesn't cover the head fully, which it will.


Looks like most of your objections are based on utterly incompetent procedures/equipment/personnel - even by 2018 standards!

Straybow December 22nd, 2018 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

I also created more advanced versions of low berths which grant a positive DM at higher TLs.

TL 12 Low Berth 75kCr +1 DM to survival roll. Same mass and other characteristics.
TL 15 Low Berth 100kCr +2 DM to survival roll. As above.

Granted the economics of low passengers are a bit wiggy. When building a ship, cargo space costs zero credits extra versus the cost of a low-berth. And at base 1000 Cr base per ton of cargo you are making credits back much sooner. Whereas with low berths you don't even break even for years (assuming 1 jump per month).

Each TL is a large technological jump, and each TL above the introduction of cold sleep would be a +1.


Yes, the economics of using an expensive piece of medical equipment for a solid week for only Cr1000 is totally crazy.

kilemall December 24th, 2018 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 596695)
Sigh.
1. no problem, done all the time with patients. Whoever handles medic duties for the ship will be proficient.

2a. Place sleeper in bio-bag, with filtered air supply. No microbe problem.
2b. Elimination is voluntary-controlled for 99%+ of the population - and space-suit-type elimination fittings take care of any involuntary. Anyone with vacc suit skill can fit them to the sleeper.

3. Simple anti-mocrobial spray on skin before bagging - and the bag is sterile inside.

4. Really? Never heard of breather masks that also cover the eyes (kinda like military gas masks) - if the bio-bag doesn't cover the head fully, which it will.


Looks like most of your objections are based on utterly incompetent procedures/equipment/personnel - even by 2018 standards!

They are based on the economics of small ship crews and greater man-hours/supply costs then what people seem to imagine Fast Passage is going to require.

Sure it can be done, but it's just not going to be slap em in a bus seat and let them slo-mo through the trip like some seem to think. It's going to require more medical overwatch and specialized medical equipment that is not going to make it 'cheap safe low berthing'.

In fact with the man-hours involved of strapping everyone in and then monitoring/adjusting, I'm guessing the life support costs even out- far less food or air, more drug cost and medics (and medic pay/stateroom/life support).

The big payoff is cramming more people into less space, so you aren't servicing 4 tons of stateroom overhead too. And again for a colonial trip for X jumps, the life support costs should stretch out over the 60 days, making your colonial ship costs more manageable while not risking the integrity of families to the risks of Low Passage.

Even if you are bound and determined to handwave away what I'm saying, just on game economics alone it shouldn't be a supercheap clever form of passage, inline with the other options cost/risk factors.

Rerednaw January 2nd, 2019 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straybow (Post 596916)
Each TL is a large technological jump, and each TL above the introduction of cold sleep would be a +1.


Yes, the economics of using an expensive piece of medical equipment for a solid week for only Cr1000 is totally crazy.

Oh I agree, except I did this for the KISS principle and to avoid an even greater change to the way the system works. I suppose we could modify it further but then unintended consequences and all that :)

Spenser TR January 2nd, 2019 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbuthod (Post 596658)
It's a bonanza for slavers. I'd mail my itinerary and shipper tracking number to my insurance company, and some of my better armed pals.

This is the part of the whole idea that interests me the most from a logistics point of view. I assume these trips aren't always on one ship, yes? Maybe a given ship is going from where you are to where you want to wind up, but it seems that more often there'd have to be a hand off.

And how exactly does that work?

Who hands you off? Who's responsible for booking you through? I doubt you know at the onset there will happen to be passage available for you as you make those transfers. How does receiving someone work? ID verified, and all that. Who oversees the whole thing? How are tracking numbers run down in the event a package goes astray?

I was writing up a little thingy about Stewards and all this settled into my thinking. Especially in the context described in AotI, I'd enjoy figuring out a semi-plausible way of describing how this would work.

Maksim-Smelchak February 4th, 2019 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerednaw (Post 596564)
Since I use a few house rules (mainly a mash of classic books 1-3 and some mongoose) I also decided to change how low berths worked.

Survive hibernation (low-berth). Routine (6+), Endurance, +Medical skill of attending physician. Failure results in 1D of damage per point missed by.

This way you get a bit of frost burn and are only in real danger if you are old, infirm, or such and also roll very poorly.

Interesting ideas. Thank you for sharing them.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Low_Berth_Rack

Shalom,
M.

Flattened Sphere April 16th, 2019 05:30 AM

My alternative to the low berth with poor survivability was the Fast Passage.

Basically, interstellar travel in an acceleration couch. You take a dose of Fast Drug at the start of your journey, and a dose of antidote at the end. You are attended by a couple of stewards who are also on Fast Drug, but the rest of the crew aren't.

Crunch the numbers ... it's a very cost-effective means of doing it. Plus, there's no danger of the ship being hijacked by any of the passengers ...

Carlobrand April 17th, 2019 09:11 PM

I don't see a steward functioning on fast drug. For that matter, I'm not entirely convinced someone can experience the world in any meaningful fashion on fast drug.

CT Book-2: "(T)he drug slows down personal metabolism at a ratio of approximately 60 to 1." Your brain is operating at 1/60th metabolism: most stimuli fail to trigger the sensory nerves they'd ordinarily trigger, and you are bordering on comatose. Nerves can't send messages at 1/60th speed; the neurochemical signal process pretty much either occurs or it doesn't.

That would kill you if it's affecting the autonomic nervous system, so let's rethink this a bit: the autonomic nervous system is functioning more or less normally, sending and receiving signals more or less normally but at a reduced rate as reduced metabolic demands in the body at large influence it. Most of the rest of the brain is functionally in coma in order to achieve the reduced overall metabolism being called for. Skeletal muscle metabolism is sharply reduced, except in the muscles responsible for respiration; these have to function enough for practical air exchange to occur, even if respiration rate is sharply reduced and breathing is shallow. Cardiac muscles are functioning more or less normally, they'd have to in order to get blood where it needs to be, but heart rate is dramatically suppressed as is blood pressure. Smooth muscles behave more or less normally. Overall the body is operating at a sharply reduced metabolic rate, but there is some variation that allows the body to do basic things like take in air and pump blood to the extremities, even if heart rate and respiration rate are dramatically reduced. We're getting a picture of a drug that consists of a blend of many drugs targeting specific cell types to achieve a balanced effect that sharply reduces metabolism while permitting key systems to function just enough to support life. In essence, a state of extreme hibernation has been artificially induced, with caloric consumption reduced to something on the order of 30-35 calories daily. About the only fast here is you'd pass out and wake up 60 days later with no memory of the intervening time. And, it is likely that whatever drugs are involved also affect microbes.

(Realistically speaking, I wouldn't expect any far future metabolism reduction trick to achieve better than about 4 or 5 days to 1, but that's neither here nor there.)

But, lets put aside the cell biology as being too gritty and detailed, take the whole thing as one of those fun sci-fi paradigms that create good stories even if they're not good science, and look just at the mechanics. Your arm is generating 1/60th its normal muscle energy: your limbs feel like they're solid lead, and lifting your arm is like lifting a 100-pound weight one-handed. You aren't moving around, regardless of whatever is happening inside your head.

Adam Dray April 17th, 2019 11:22 PM

IMTU, "low berth" is how everyone prefers to travel. It's completely safe except under severe conditions (ship damage, etc.) and there are even built-in protocols to auto-wake people in that case.

People prefer cryo travel because they get to VR-dream the entire time. They can choose to pass the time at a faster rate (make six weeks feel like a day), a slower rate (take that six-month training course in a month), at normal rate (and spend the time chatting with other passengers), or even just sleep through it.

Good VR systems offer training courses, adventures, alternate reality games, and probably some pornographic versions of those things, too. All for a fee, though most commercial travel ships include a lot of it in the base package, and charge only for premium content.

Ships prefer it this way, really. Everyone travels in cryo, if they can help it. It's more secure. It reduces life support costs. You don't have to feed them, except through a tube. They take up less space and you don't have to have a passenger exercise room and lounge and crap.

The crew spends a lot of time in VR, too, in a lighter sleep than cryo. It's just more fun to pass the time that way. Space is pretty boring most of the time. Wake me up when it's my maintenance shift, okay?

wellis April 18th, 2019 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Dray (Post 600889)
IMTU, "low berth" is how everyone prefers to travel. It's completely safe except under severe conditions (ship damage, etc.) and there are even built-in protocols to auto-wake people in that case.

People prefer cryo travel because they get to VR-dream the entire time. They can choose to pass the time at a faster rate (make six weeks feel like a day), a slower rate (take that six-month training course in a month), at normal rate (and spend the time chatting with other passengers), or even just sleep through it.

Good VR systems offer training courses, adventures, alternate reality games, and probably some pornographic versions of those things, too. All for a fee, though most commercial travel ships include a lot of it in the base package, and charge only for premium content.

Ships prefer it this way, really. Everyone travels in cryo, if they can help it. It's more secure. It reduces life support costs. You don't have to feed them, except through a tube. They take up less space and you don't have to have a passenger exercise room and lounge and crap.

The crew spends a lot of time in VR, too, in a lighter sleep than cryo. It's just more fun to pass the time that way. Space is pretty boring most of the time. Wake me up when it's my maintenance shift, okay?

So what are the main difference in low, mid, & high passage in your setting?

And for what reasons might someone not want to do low berth?

Carlobrand April 18th, 2019 09:47 AM

IMTU, the low berth is full-on frozen sleep, no metabolism going on, no need to deliver O2 or calories or deal with waste, you'll stay that way for as long as power is delivered to the berth. It means a severely injured person isn't slowly dying, though of course reanimation could get complicated. The low berths draw power from emergency power systems - radioisotope generators - so a player could conceivably come across a derelict with low-berth passengers who've been there for decades, or the players could bail themselves out of a nasty fix by going into low berths and then find themselves waking decades in the future. It is not without risks, though those most often consist of you waking to find yourself in a hospital bed with a period of recovery ahead of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wellis (Post 600893)
...And for what reasons might someone not want to do low berth?

Well, if you've got the money to spend, why not enjoy the pleasures of a cruise? Good food, good entertainment, someone waiting on you, time to relax and read a novel or hob-nob with your fellow passengers, a week to acclimatize to the new gravity and the new air - it's worth the money if you have it.

JimMarn April 18th, 2019 12:24 PM

Read all the posts on this thread.

Why use bus/airline type seats ?

Wouldn't a setup like a Japanese capsule hotel work better ? The doors into each one could be vac proof. The air is filtered, there are entertainment facilities built-in. Otherwise the drug sequence remains the same.

So how much cost would that add to a ship ? And how many passengers could be carried that way ? Or this even viable ?

Condottiere April 18th, 2019 01:23 PM

Superficially, the driving forces being cost, space, safety, and boredom.

It's more a question of honouring science fiction tropes, specifically the Dumarest Saga, since I believe in most other iterations, it's a fairly safe and routine operation.

Adam Dray April 18th, 2019 01:59 PM

My setting has three modes of travel: crew, stateroom, and cryo.

Crew don't go full cryo, but spend downtime in the lounge or in VR.

Staterooms on ships are fairly rare, and are for people terrified of cryo for some reason, because ships really just prefer to ice you when you get on their ship.

Cryo is the default mode of travel. Cheap, safe, fun.

wellis April 19th, 2019 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Dray (Post 600912)
My setting has three modes of travel: crew, stateroom, and cryo.

Crew don't go full cryo, but spend downtime in the lounge or in VR.

Staterooms on ships are fairly rare, and are for people terrified of cryo for some reason, because ships really just prefer to ice you when you get on their ship.

Cryo is the default mode of travel. Cheap, safe, fun.

Yes but what is the difference in quality classified as, and how is it shown?

What separates what a noble experiences in cryo or stateroom vs say some down-on-his-luck merchant when experiencing the same?

Is there a difference in accommodations in VR or what?

fantome April 20th, 2019 08:14 PM

>>
...And for what reasons might someone not want to do low berth?
<<
Let's see, let me turn this around in why would I not want to go into a low berth?

I'm just going aboard a ship I may have never seen land on my planet before. I'm literally putting my life in the hands of their captain, the state of their ship, their low berth equipment and their medical staff. IF I have the money, at least I don't have to rely on their cryo equipment and medical staff. Sure, it could be the equipment to resuscitate will normally work fine (and better at higher TLs), except when it doesn't and that's when you want high TL doctors quickly working upon reviving you. The starport you are going to may or may not have the facilities for revival, and in that case you have to rely on a first aider in the crew. I also may be curious to see what hyperspace looks and feels like from the inside of a ship - at least once-, or just take a seven day sabbatical on board a ship to get away from it all.

The ships in space are modeled quite a bit on the ships in sea. The crew are there to ideally have a rotating watch. To perform routine monitoring and maintenance, to take turns on the ship roster of duties. Most vessels don't have crew spare (for cost reasons if nothing else) other than to cover the essentials - allowing for necessary rest and some leisure time. It is much easier and flexible for crew when there aren't passengers getting in their way or able to report on their activities.

...And for what reasons might someone not travel on any ship including one in the Imperium?

It may or may not be safer than travelling in a plane, but there isn't an ironclad guarantee that you will reach your destination.

Happy travels.

AndyW June 17th, 2019 09:54 PM

On a small trader I always wondered how one separated the mid passengers from the high ones. I suppose the steward could prepare filet mignon for the highs and toss some kibble in front of the mids, but in a cramped ship, how do you separate out the entertainment factor. I always assumed the small tramps were limited to mid and low.

Then there is the jerk factor to consider. A week in jump, sharing a 400 sq. ft. lounge with a supreme asshole has to be taxing on the psyche. Not exactly a high passage memorable experience. Memorable perhaps...

It seems to me that travel off the mains in a small vessel is best done low, so I've typically thought that most vessels don't carry enough low berths. I also feel that a vessel should have emergency lows for crew. IMTU, I like sizing a power plant to run all systems simultaneously for the month's fuel allotment, but in some situations not all systems are run. In that case the plant can be de-rated for the decreased load. This allows for a glimmer of hope if the ship misjumps into the abyss. Thrust to a relativistic vector, charge up batteries, shut down everything but low berths and transponder SOS ping, say a prayer and take a nap...
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"Hey, these bios are in the green. There goes our salvage guys."

Straybow February 29th, 2020 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMarn (Post 600906)
Read all the posts on this thread.

Why use bus/airline type seats ?

Wouldn't a setup like a Japanese capsule hotel work better ? The doors into each one could be vac proof. The air is filtered, there are entertainment facilities built-in. Otherwise the drug sequence remains the same.

So how much cost would that add to a ship ? And how many passengers could be carried that way ? Or this even viable ?

It's basically a more private improvement on what was once called Steerage. Bunks, often three high. A small commons with tables, perhaps seating a third of the occupants in shifts for dining. You carry your own food in tins, with a small amount of hot foods available for cash.

The capsule version usually has an automat for food and a common toilet and shower. However, these usually aren't used for more than an overnight. China might have a multi-night capsule train service, but the only thing I could find info on is a 1400 mile bullet train, not multi-night.

Trans-oceanic first class seating is essentially a partitioned, fully reclinable seat with lots of doo-dads for work and entertainment. Actually more private and comfortable than a capsule. You can sit without having to do the cross-legged thing for hours, recline to whatever degree you want, get up and stretch without having to crawl in/out, nor climb up/down. An advanced version could allow a kneeling chair arrangement for those who prefer that. A partition designed for a week of travel might even have a pull-up bar and other exercise equipment built in.

An advanced anchor system would allow seats to be arranged before departure for groups desiring interaction within and privacy without. Maybe even some limited rearrangement underway.

You might be able to have a built-in toilet, heck, maybe even a shower.

mike wightman February 29th, 2020 04:48 AM

From Signal GK:
Quote:

Sanitary necessities are handled by the fresher, which includes a multi-function
shower, a toilet, a sink, and a small washer/dryer (for the benefit of middle
passengers). All components fold unobtrusively out of the way when not in use.



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