Citizens of the Imperium

Citizens of the Imperium (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/index.php)
-   Mongoose Traveller (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/forumdisplay.php?f=122)
-   -   MGT Only: Fighters in Combat (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=38234)

McPerth September 11th, 2017 09:11 AM

Fighters in Combat
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573312)
Since the barrage system took the damage dice of the weapon as a positive DM and there was no size modifier, it was advantageous for big guns, aka bays.

There's no DM for size, but there's a -4 DM to attack fighter wings (MgT1E:HG, page 80).

Also, the high speed of light fighters make them quite likely to reach close range, where any long range weapon has a -3 (but they have only a -1, as they use the "small craft shooting" column for close range (page 73 table), and if they use the "Fast Strafing Run" order (page 81, 4 initiative cost)m they shoot at +2DM and are shot at -2 DM).

See that the fighter shown in this post would be fired at -19 DM (-15 due to armor, -4 for fighter wings).

Example:

Let's imagine that a wing of 100 such fighters, 5 equal fighters armed with pulse lasers and 5 more with sandcasters (for wing defense), with crews skill pilot2 and gunner 1 (acting as 1 and 0 respectively, as they use both at once) attack Planet Class Heavy Cruiser (MgT1E:HG page 119) with +3 Crew quality. The fighters Dodge whi lthe approach:

Approach:

the cruiser:
  • fires its meson bays at -3 DM (+8 per dice, +2 per improvements, +3 per crew quality, +5 per fire control), but can only kill 10 fighters (one per gunner, so I guess one per bay).
  • Fires the torpedos at -5 (as they have 6 dice, asuming nukes, and no improvement DMs), but the point defenses subtract 2d-3 more.
  • Fires the PBs at -8 (same as mesons, but only 3 dice damage)
  • Fires the lasers at -10 (as they only have 1 die damage), so ineffective.
  • Fires the missiles at -11 (assuming they are nukes, as they have 2 dice damage, but no improvement DMs).

The fighters:
Fire their PBs at -4 DM (-10 per armor, +3 per dice, +3 FC), -6 if the cruiser is dodging. If the crews have.

Once at close range:

All cruiser weapons are subject to an additional -3, and missiles (and I guess torpedoes) cannot be used; so only the Mesons can be effective, but fire at -6

The fighters fire at -5 (-7 if the cruiser is dodging).

If strafing:

The cruiser bays are at additional -2, so firing at -8

The fighters fire at -3/-5.

And the fighters wing about MCr 3300 in total, while the cruiser costs MCr 55537. Assuming the same Budget and 66% of the fighter's one needed for carriers, the wing could be about 600 fighters....

Of course, against the armor 15 BB shown in page 101 the situation is less bright for the fighters, but the Budget is increased to MCr 138236, so, with the same premises (33% of th ebudget spent in fighters), about 1500 fighters could attack it...

AnotherDilbert September 11th, 2017 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573319)
There's no DM for size, but there's a -4 DM to attack fighter wings (MgT1E:HG, page 80).

It's also optional: you can always fire at individual fighters.


Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573319)
See that the fighter shown in this post would be fired at -19 DM (-15 due to armor, -4 for fighter wings).

OK.

But why such a ridiculous ship? We just agreed meson bays were a bad choice with the barrage system.

Let's take this instead:
https://i.imgur.com/xKb5ihy.png
It's certainly not optimised to kill fighters...

At MCr 6000 it's about equal budget to 100 of your fighters with a carrier?


Let's start at Distant range:
The ship fires at
Barbettes: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -5. This is 42% chance to kill 14 (limited by turret gunners) fighters for an average of 6 fighters.
Barbettes, individual: -2[range] +0[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -6. This is 30 × 28% chance to kill a fighter for an average of 8 fighters.
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = ±0 this is 12 fighters killed per round.
Totally about 20 fighters are killed each round, so all fighters are killed after 5 rounds.

At 12 G against my slow capital 2 G (+dodge) you can decrease the range by ~8 each turn while dodging. It will take 50 / 8 ≈ 7 turns to close in to Very Long.

The fighter will never reach Very Long range, much less Short range...

The fighters fire at:
Turret: -4[range] +2[software] +2[Acc,HYield] -2[dodge] +0[skill] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -6 giving an average damage of about 24 damage, killing the ship in about 71 × 4 / 24 ≈ 12 turns.

The fighters will have inflicted about 75 damage before they are wiped out.


Sorry if I have forgotten something, it was awhile since MgT1...


If we assume that Fire Control software applies to all attacks, not just one, the barbettes would attack 30 individual fighters, killing about 27 fighters for a total of 39 fighters per turn.

Edit: I just realised I can't do 30 attacks with 14 gunners.

McPerth September 12th, 2017 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
It's also optional: you can always fire at individual fighters.

Sure, if you have the time for so many rolls (or if you resort to stastical results, but I hate them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
OK.

But why such a ridiculous ship? We just agreed meson bays were a bad choice with the barrage system.

Well, it was one of the ships in the MgT:HG...

And personally I guess we agreed we found an errata (mesons should not be affected by armour), not that mesons are a bad choice....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
Let's take this instead:
https://i.imgur.com/xKb5ihy.png
It's certainly not optimised to kill fighters...

At MCr 6000 it's about equal budget to 100 of your fighters with a carrier?

I guess so...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
Let's start at Distant range:

See that at Distant range the sensors (MB, page 144) only allow for visual and termal minimal results, defined as basic outline of objects for visual (size irrlevant, it seems) and hot and cold overall for termal.

Would that be enough for a lock on?

In any case, I cannot find any sensor need in combat rules :confused:...

In any case, MB page 146 talks about combats begining at long range (unless near a planet, where it would be short or médium)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
The ship fires at
Barbettes: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -5. This is 42% chance to kill 14 (limited by turret gunners) fighters for an average of 6 fighters.

My math is -2+5+2-2+3+4-15-4= -9...

If so, only with a 12 result they will have a 10% result (as the total barrage is 52, that would be 5 fighters)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
Barbettes, individual: -2[range] +0[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -6. This is 30 × 28% chance to kill a fighter for an average of 8 fighters.

If firing individual, the DMs would be -2 (range), -2 (Dodge) +3 skill, as neither the dice, armor of fighter wing DMs do not apply. So they will hit on a 9+, and each hit must roll 4 dice (1 and 2 count as 3, as it's very high Yeld) for a 16+ to kill the fighter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = ±0 this is 12 fighters killed per round.

Again, my math is -2+5+2-2+3+9-15-4 = -4. Sitll good, but not so much...


Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573361)
Totally about 20 fighters are killed each round, so all fighters are killed after 5 rounds.

At 12 G against my slow capital 2 G (+dodge) you can decrease the range by ~8 each turn while dodging. It will take 50 / 8 ≈ 7 turns to close in to Very Long.

The fighter will never reach Very Long range, much less Short range...

The fighters fire at:
Turret: -4[range] +2[software] +2[Acc,HYield] -2[dodge] +0[skill] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -6 giving an average damage of about 24 damage, killing the ship in about 71 × 4 / 24 ≈ 12 turns.

Again, my math difers: -4+2+2-2+3-15 = 14, so being fully ineffective at those ranges (in fact, until they can close to straffing runs, if they can)

Of course, if they begin at very long, the DMs for range change, but fighters will close in about 3 rounds, and be at close in about 3 more...

Blue Ghost September 12th, 2017 01:04 PM

Are you using T5 or MT rules for that build?

McPerth September 12th, 2017 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost (Post 573411)
Are you using T5 or MT rules for that build?

If you're asking to AnotherDIlbert or to me, we're using MgT1E.

Blue Ghost September 12th, 2017 02:27 PM

Okay, it looked very familiar but also much different from classic ship design. More vetted.

AnotherDilbert September 12th, 2017 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573401)
Sure, if you have the time for so many rolls (or if you resort to stastical results, but I hate them).

I would resort to statistical or software after just a few rolls...


Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573401)
And personally I guess we agreed we found an errata (mesons should not be affected by armour), not that mesons are a bad choice....

Sorry I misunderstood. My hit rate yesterday seems to be quite low.

Mesons should not be affected by armour of course, but that would make them completely unbalanced, without any effective defence before TL14 - 15. I such case we would have to find some balancing factor...


Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573401)
See that at Distant range the sensors (MB, page 144) only allow for visual and termal minimal results, defined as basic outline of objects for visual (size irrlevant, it seems) and hot and cold overall for termal.

...

In any case, MB page 146 talks about combats begining at long range (unless near a planet, where it would be short or médium)

I run simple logic: If I'm at war and see warships that refuse to identify themselves I fire.
We can hit at Distant range, so I start to fire at Distant range.
Starting at shorter range would require exceptional circumstances.


Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573401)
My math is -2+5+2-2+3+4-15-4= -9...

If so, only with a 12 result they will have a 10% result (as the total barrage is 52, that would be 5 fighters)

You are correct, I seem to have consistently flipped the sign of the range modifier. All my calculations were completely wrong, well, time to start over I guess...


Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573401)
If firing individual, the DMs would be -2 (range), -2 (Dodge) +3 skill, as neither the dice, armor of fighter wing DMs do not apply.

A barrage can be very small, it is simply all the weapons of the same type fired on the same target.
With 100 enemy fighters there is no lack of targets, so each barbette can fire a barrage on an individual fighter (with enough gunners).

You are right, we can also use basic attacks, another alternative to evaluate...


Ok, let's see if I can do better:
Let's start at Distant range:
The ship fires at
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -4, so we need to roll 7+ to kill 12 fighters for an average of 7 fighters per round.

Barbettes: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -9. This is 2.8% chance to kill 14 (limited by turret gunners) fighters for an average of 0.4 fighters.
Barbettes, 15 barrages of 2: -2[range] +1[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -9. This is 15 × 2.8% chance to kill a fighter for an average of 0.4 fighters.
Barbettes, 15 basic: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] = ±0. This is 15 × 42% × 55% chance to kill a fighter for an average of 3.5 fighters.

Totally about 10 fighters are killed each round.

At 12 G against my slow capital 2 G (+dodge) you can decrease the range by ~8 each turn while dodging. It will take 50 / 8 ≈ 7 turns to close in to Very Long and another 3 rounds to Long range.

All fighters are killed before reaching Long range.



Let's try this instead:
https://i.imgur.com/rMhIGGn.png
With 3 × Reinforced hull it takes 9 + 1 points of damage to kill it.
And it has a gunner.

Its about 50% more expensive and 50% larger (so more expensive carrier). Let's say we get 65 of these for 100 of the 10 Dt fighters.

The ship fires at
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -4, for an average of 5 fighters per round.

Barbettes, 15 basic: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] = ±0. This is 15 × 42% × 2.67 = 16.8 damage for an average of 1.7 fighters.

Totally about 7 fighters are killed each round.


The fighters fire at (65 barrage attacks since the ship can't dodge 65 times):
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -4 giving an average damage of about 0.26 × 3 × 65 = 50 damage.

Since we lose some fighters each round we do less damage every round:
1: 50
2: 45
3: 39
4: 34
5: 28
6: 23
7: 18
8: 12
9: 5
for a total of 254 damage of 284. The ship barely survives, killing all fighters.

The fighters do better, but still lose...

pendragonman September 12th, 2017 07:34 PM

Gentlemen,

It will still come down to the basic design philosophy of each navy. Anyone can make a specific type of ship that counters the other guys advantage. The real skill is your fleet mix and how you assign ships where for your meeting engagements.

Fleet carriers will not always find targets vulnerable to fighters, nor will they always run into target optimized to kill fighters.

And without a fleet logistics requirement there is no cost to firing even if you only hit on boxcars.

Blue Ghost September 14th, 2017 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 573415)
If you're asking to AnotherDIlbert or to me, we're using MgT1E.

One more question, is that from the basic rules or from the MgT equivalent of HG?

McPerth September 14th, 2017 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573423)
I would resort to statistical or software after just a few rolls...

As I already said, this is something I don't like to, but it's only a matter of taste, not something wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573423)
I run simple logic: If I'm at war and see warships that refuse to identify themselves I fire.
We can hit at Distant range, so I start to fire at Distant range.
Starting at shorter range would require exceptional circumstances.


But rules specify that combat begins at Distant. I gues that's due to sensor locking capabilities, as, as I said, the sensors at Long range are quite ineffective. Don't ask me how can they fire at long distance, I guess that's against already detected and locked fleeing units.

Unfortunately, no sensor using rules are in the rules for combat (or at least I have not found them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573423)
Let's try this instead:
https://i.imgur.com/rMhIGGn.png
With 3 × Reinforced hull it takes 9 + 1 points of damage to kill it.
And it has a gunner.

Its about 50% more expensive and 50% larger (so more expensive carrier). Let's say we get 65 of these for 100 of the 10 Dt fighters.

You ninja'd me, as I was reading a similar design, with gunner and better hardware (and software, off course).

As your cockpit is only 1.5 dtons, where is the gunner fit? According the small ship design rules (HG page 60) A cockpit takes 1.5 tons per crewmemeber .

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert (Post 573423)
The ship fires at
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -4, for an average of 5 fighters per round.

Barbettes, 15 basic: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] = ±0. This is 15 × 42% × 2.67 = 16.8 damage for an average of 1.7 fighters.

Totally about 7 fighters are killed each round.


The fighters fire at (65 barrage attacks since the ship can't dodge 65 times):
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -4 giving an average damage of about 0.26 × 3 × 65 = 50 damage.

Since we lose some fighters each round we do less damage every round:
1: 50
2: 45
3: 39
4: 34
5: 28
6: 23
7: 18
8: 12
9: 5
for a total of 254 damage of 284. The ship barely survives, killing all fighters.

The fighters do better, but still lose...

I'm afraid you forgot some rules about how damage is applied (after all, you already warned that you might, as it was a longtime since you used those rules):

For small crafts, the damage is multiplied by 3, so the 5 fighers per round for the bays would be 15 (in fact 12, due to the gunners limitations), and the 1.7 from the barbettes would be 5 (see that this reduces de advantage of the reinforced hulls, at least against high dice weapons).

For the capital ships, you forget the System Damage, that is likely to reduce its offensive power.

And remember that the fighters may also divide themselves into several flights, so reducing their losses against massive barrages...


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.