Citizens of the Imperium

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atpollard March 8th, 2014 10:56 PM

What about a barbette, like on the early Monitor class ships and early dreadnoughts?

(A projecting semicircular platform with a half wall that the gun fires over.)

SpaceBadger March 8th, 2014 11:45 PM

I dunno, as one of the guys inside the thing, I really like Aramis's suggestion of a sponson turret. Plus I have examples of that type turret I can copy from early WWI tanks that would look pretty cool (example).

But it's McBean's airship, so I'm waiting to see how attached McPerth is to that balcony idea.



EDIT: If a turret, would need firing slits to allow one or two others into turret to fire out with rifles. Otherwise the barbette would be better (barbetter? ;) ).


EDIT 2: Or maybe some armored walls w rifle slits elsewhere onboard?


*

aramis March 9th, 2014 03:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 470035)
What about a barbette, like on the early Monitor class ships and early dreadnoughts?

(A projecting semicircular platform with a half wall that the gun fires over.)

I'm thinking that...
It's a genuine sponson barbette - but in space, it's probably in vacuum.
It's got 180 of traverse, 30 Elevation, 45 depression. When the gun isn't pointing straight abeam, you have to crouch to get in. It's vacuum tight in the short term, but... When it's operating, it's not airtight - each ship combat turn of action loses a cubic foot of air, and it probably has about 200 cubic feet inside. And it's certainly got a vacuum hatch to the inside of the airship.

Attached is a small graphic to help visualize.

I'm also thinking that the rigging is mostly off the sides - the mainspars dropping the sails, with the yardarms literally hanging. When the rigging stows, the mainspars fold along the body, with the hanging arms lashed to them.

Alternatively, it could be a full rotation turret sticking out the sides of the airship gasbag, but that means the rigging needs to be top mounted... and that's awkwardly imbalanced, given the solar boiler is also top mounted (otherwise, you'd need a platform to board).

McPerth March 9th, 2014 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 470032)
Thanks for the info. I have skipped that section of the book so far, but will read it now. Will also look at the two airship combat books.

EDIT: We would not be using boiler and sails at same time, would we? Boiler in space, sails in atmosphere? Or else I suppose we would need to take down the upper sails to allow the sun to shine on the boiler.

No, we won't. In Canal Priests of Mars it's told that the mirror for the bolier is folded when entring into atmosphere. It would also be then where the masts are telescoped out to allow for the sails to be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 470032)
EDIT2: Are lower masts hinged or stowed in some way so as not to interfere with landing the ship?

As the ship is inteneded to be able to land outside specialized facilitites, it can not have lower sails.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 470033)
I think I need some clarification here. Personally, since my PC is a gunner, I think I like the sound of "turrets" better than "balconies". :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 470035)
What about a barbette, like on the early Monitor class ships and early dreadnoughts?

(A projecting semicircular platform with a half wall that the gun fires over.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 470036)
I dunno, as one of the guys inside the thing, I really like Aramis's suggestion of a sponson turret. Plus I have examples of that type turret I can copy from early WWI tanks that would look pretty cool (example).

But it's McBean's airship, so I'm waiting to see how attached McPerth is to that balcony idea.



EDIT: If a turret, would need firing slits to allow one or two others into turret to fire out with rifles. Otherwise the barbette would be better (barbetter? ;) ).


EDIT 2: Or maybe some armored walls w rifle slits elsewhere onboard?


*

I like the barbette/sponson idea, but in the rules book is specified that inventros don't use to have access to those turrets, that's why I envisioned them as balconies (even while this would unfurtonantely left the gunners outside the armor).

Also, I don't think those sponsoons could be airthight, so the guns would be unusable in space in any case.

This aside, if they are in such sponsoons would need 10% weight extra, so 3 tons would have to be subtracted from the cargo hold.

aramis March 9th, 2014 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPerth (Post 470049)
No, we won't. In Canal Priests of Mars it's told that the mirror for the bolier is folded when entring into atmosphere. It would also be then where the masts are telescoped out to allow for the sails to be used.



As the ship is inteneded to be able to land outside specialized facilitites, it can not have lower sails.







I like the barbette/sponson idea, but in the rules book is specified that inventros don't use to have access to those turrets, that's why I envisioned them as balconies (even while this would unfurtonantely left the gunners outside the armor).

Also, I don't think those sponsoons could be airthight, so the guns would be unusable in space in any case.

This aside, if they are in such sponsoons would need 10% weight extra, so 3 tons would have to be subtracted from the cargo hold.

COnsider them the gift of the OS. Normal inventors only get to mount one gun...

SpaceBadger March 9th, 2014 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 470055)
COnsider them the gift of the OS. Normal inventors only get to mount one gun...

:D :D :D

Great, guys, that gives me a lot to work with! :D Probably won't be able to get to sleep for visions of rigid airships with sails dancing in my head. :)

Oh, one more idea I had, I actually kinda like the idea McPerth/McBean proposed of having balconies as long as my PC wouldn't have to rely on them while being shot at... So how about a couple of observation balconies out to each side, unarmed, in addition to the turrets? (and placed so as to minimize interference w turrets line of fire)



EDIT: With the turrets working as Aramis outlined (useable in vacuum but only for short time due to air leakage) I don't think the rifle firing slits that I mentioned earlier would work at all - even with some sort of sliding covers, that would be lots of moving parts to seal against vacuum. Would the idea of having rifle slits elsewhere work, or am I thinking too hard to make this scientific vessel into a military ship?



*

McPerth March 9th, 2014 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 470055)
COnsider them the gift of the OS. Normal inventors only get to mount one gun...

Ok, then the cargo is reduced to 34 tons (3 tons subtracted for armored sponsons, 2 for photo lab and 1 for chamera system). Ship edited in McBean's ressearch thread. Please, review it.

aramis March 13th, 2014 02:49 PM

Ok, decision time... is the ether prop in the tail of the envelope, or in the aft of the gondola?

Airscrew propellers - off the sides of the gondola? off the sides of the gassbag? Large single one behind the tail? On the horizontal stabilizers of the tail?

Guns - sides of gondola or gasbag?

McPerth March 14th, 2014 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 470434)
Ok, decision time... is the ether prop in the tail of the envelope, or in the aft of the gondola?

Airscrew propellers - off the sides of the gondola? off the sides of the gassbag? Large single one behind the tail? On the horizontal stabilizers of the tail?

Guns - sides of gondola or gasbag?

As the ether propeller is only used in abscence of the oxygen that would make fires a danger, it's the only elemente in the envelope, so it's at its aft, while the atmospheric propellers (and boiler) are at the aft of the gondola.

By the same reason, the guns are at the sides of the gondola too, as their firing sparks would be dangerous too close of the envelope or over it (as they will if at the top deck, over the envelops, as any hydrogen leack will go up to it, not doen to the gondola).

SpaceBadger March 14th, 2014 06:27 PM

I don't have an opinion on location of ether prop, but am happy that you brought it up before I got started drawing it somewhere else. :)

I think the gun turrets at the sides of the airship structure (not the gondola) would make more sense, as it would give a little better upward traverse without accidentally shooting into the airship. The way the turrets are isolated with hatches, there should not be any issue of sparks getting into contact w free hydrogen.

Also, all of the rigid airship designs that I have been looking at for inspiration do not have free hydrogen loose in the whole structure (which is why I am referring to that structure as the airship rather than the gasbag). There are multiple individual gasbags inside the rigid airship structure, and there are also tanks and ballonets and pumps and other apparatus to maintain trim and allow adjustment of both attitude (nose up, down, or level) and altitude by controlled movement of hydrogen and regular atmosphere into or out of the gasbags and ballonets.


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