Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   40K - was it the first published ATU? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=38879)

Blue Ghost March 15th, 2018 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 583858)
*snippage*

Note that the Makers concept doesn't originate with Marc... we see it in Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader. Which, coincidentally, was announced right as Marc cancelled their Traveller License. (40K RT felt very much like a Variant of the OTU at the time - my view of it then wasn't quite that dark, but it resonated with both A1 and A4 - both of which were written by GW. At the least, it's cross-fertilization.)

I've never heard of Rogue Trader. Was that a 90s product? I had put Traveller down then for professional and other real life reasons.

aramis March 15th, 2018 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost (Post 584140)
I've never heard of Rogue Trader. Was that a 90s product? I had put Traveller down then for professional and other real life reasons.

It was the first edition of WH40K. Which was Games Workshop's first major product announced right as Marc withdrew their Traveller license.

Blue Ghost March 15th, 2018 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 584148)
It was the first edition of WH40K. Which was Games Workshop's first major product announced right as Marc withdrew their Traveller license.

That's interesting. I always thought Warhammer40k was a fantasy "elves and orcs in space" kind of game.

whartung March 15th, 2018 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost (Post 584164)
That's interesting. I always thought Warhammer40k was a fantasy "elves and orcs in space" kind of game.

I never really considered it Fantasy, but I never considered it "hard" Sci-Fi like Traveller.

I never played it, I just loved the book - as a book. Boy was it dark.

aramis March 16th, 2018 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whartung (Post 584205)
I never really considered it Fantasy, but I never considered it "hard" Sci-Fi like Traveller.

I never played it, I just loved the book - as a book. Boy was it dark.

Looking at the prototraveller concept and the "444 prototraveller", it feels like it's also proto-40K. A dark imperium with a distant emperor and a purge of psionicists...

Keep in mind: the guys writing WH40K:RT were the GW Staff. The core lists Rick Priestly.

Traveller Adventures 1 & 4 were written by GW, and published by GDW.
GW printed Traveller under license, and supported it in early issues of White Dwarf - Andy Slack essentially wrote most of that support.

In Dragon, just before the end of all the licenses, GW was promising a new Sci-Fi wargame for use with Traveller... But GDW was working on their own, as well...

And then, after the license termination, we suddenly see WH40K:RT instead...

They added their beloved Cthulu Mythos references.
They added the beasties from the compatible and several-years-older fantasy engine.

The tech paradigm is slightly changed, but...
Slug-throwers in space.
Battlesuit marines dropping from orbit.
Gravitic vehicles aplenty, but still also traditional ground vehicles
The distant emperor who rules by delegation (in 40K, because he's essentially dead)
Nobles ruling in the Emperor's name in distant places.
An advanced combat rifle (The Bolt Gun) is the standard weapon of the Imperial Marines. Las-guns for the Army.
There are Needle Guns (Read Gauss Guns), Plasma Guns (man portable), Melta-guns (Read as Fusion Guns)...
"Modern armour": Carapace, Flak, Mesh, Powered...
Subsidized merchants are the prime source of trade.

Weaker correlation points that look to have been changed purposefully:
Standard jumps take 1-6 days and cover 1-4 light years, while misjumps are 4-16 LY in 36 hours...
Warp Gates added... 2d6 days per 4 LY, and covering distances to 20 LY.
The Dune-reference: Navigators are psionicists. Which is a theory used by some GM's to explain why jump tapes are one use back in the day: Navigation in N-Space is a weak psionic function.
Corruption and warpspace monsters.

The Eldar are the Daryen... Higher tech, not really interested in the big fight, but capable of using ancient machines for great effect, but only sometimes.
The Squats? in Traveller, we call them Geonee. (Or Roger Moore's Dwarves in Space article from Dragon #70, Feb 1983.).

I think they simply morphed from "a dark traveller home game" to "we need a setting for the minis game that is no longer traveller" and made a few big and interesting changes.

mike wightman March 16th, 2018 01:08 PM

Why do you keep saying Adventure 1 Kinunir was written by Games Workshop?

All the evidence says it was GDW who produced it.

whartung March 16th, 2018 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 584206)
Gravitic vehicles aplenty, but still also traditional ground vehicles

To this point, to better clarify what I was feeling with it.

While grav and ground vehicles are suitably "high tech", I categorize the stuff we see on 40K as "traditional ground vehicles" to be in the same genre as the "tradition ground vehicles" of Mad Max Fury Road.

Yea, they're vehicles. But when you look at the culture around them, they're as much fetishes as they are vehicles.

Similarly in 40K, you look at the outlandish designs, the graffiti, the culture promoted. Death cults with tanks and starships.

They certainly use high technology, but they don't really understand it. (I may be fuzzy on this, it's been quite a while.)

The high technology is as much magic as anything else.

So, even though the hard parts of the two universes are very similar, the approach and feel around them are completely different. That's why I never really put 40K in the same vein at Traveller in terms of technology.

jcrocker March 17th, 2018 12:27 AM

A friend of mine had Rogue Trader in 87? 88? I know it was before the 90s.

I'm not an expert, but friends of mine were really into it for a while and I read through a fair bit of their stuff. WH40K has a completely different feel than Traveller. There are points of correlation as Aramis has pointed out above, but it's Traveller through a grimdark/Mad Max lens.

David Johansen March 17th, 2018 11:17 PM

GW's Star Farers predades, 40k by about 5 years and has a space emperor, dark disciples, marines, bolt guns and so forth. GW founder's Laser Burn goes back ever farther and has similarities as well. 40k comes mostly from a 2000 AD comic called Nemesis The Warlock and Judge Dread, Rogue Trooper, and ABC Warriors all have call outs in the game. Still, 40k was an anything goes hodge podge that started out in White Dwarf, much like Warhammer Fantasy Battle before it. The reason 40k has Orcs, Dwarfs, and Elves is that the GW staff were converting fantasy miniatures to play it. It's a mad, mad, British thing.

It really doesn't have that much Traveller in it. A Bolt Gun is a 25 rocket propelled grenade launcher, not a 5mm caseless automatic weapon with a RAM grenade launcher. Lasguns are actually inferior to automatic rifles having only a 24" range as opposed to 32".

The chaos gods owe more to Moorcock than Lovecraft. But even that is in name only, rather than other worldly deities with their own schemes in which humans are but pawns, or alien entities as beyond us as we are to protozoa, they are dark reflections of the human spirit, they even have their positive aspects, the better to corrupt and subvert. In Warhammer the human spirit is the end game not an irrelevant nothing.

In many ways 40k is a reaction against science fiction. Forget the promise of science and the goodness of humanity for in the grim dark future there is only war and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Condottiere March 18th, 2018 12:55 AM

It's a Seventies rather than an Eighties take on it, with a heavy British pop cultural viewpoint.

2000AD is very influential, taking the mickey out of social, cultural and political institutions; eventually, Dredd gets included.


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