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Supplement Four December 22nd, 2009 06:09 PM

AD&D 2E Combat Round
 
For those of you familiar with AD&D 2E, how do you read the combat round procedure. More specfically, where does movement take place?


AD&D Combat Round
1. DM decides secretly on NPC/Monster actions.

2. Players declare actions.

3. Initiative is rolled.

4. Round is resolved.


I would think that movement takes place after initiative is rolled when the round is resolved, but some of the examples in the rule book seem to hint towards a type of movement phase that happens during the Declaration step.

The example in the book has a dwarf fighter declarig that he's charging some Orc's, and the player playing the mage decides not to declare that the mage is starting to cast a fireball for fear of hitting the dwarf.

This would indicate that the dwarf moved, others moved after him, then initiative is rolled and attacks are resolved.

Of course, that example uses the game's default initiative rules were only one initiative throw is made for each side, allowing an entire side to go first or last.

I've tried to find some clarifcation on this on the net, but, so far, to no avail.



Your thoughts?

spinwardpirate December 23rd, 2009 09:47 AM

Sorry, I played the hell outta 2E back in the day, but that was long ago enough that today I just don't recall.

Queue the trip down memory lane music... I really, really liked 2E. My favorite character, and favorite group of characters, were all from 2E.

atpollard December 23rd, 2009 10:06 AM

I view games as attempting to simulate reality, so common sense prevails.

IMHO, one would decide on what action they intended to take (charge the bad guy and shove a spear through him before he can put an arrow through my heart) and THEN take the action (I run, I thrust vs. He Shoots) with initiative deciding which roughly simultaneous event happens first (I run, he shoots and hits, I fall down - no thrust). The rolls determine results, the narrative smothes out the actions.

In your opening example, initiative comes before movement and the spellcaster's party had either communicated their intended actions or the spellcaster gave up his intended action based on events unfolding before him or the spellcaster had intentionally delayed action to forfeit initative and react rather than act this round. All three options fall below the threshold of the rules mechanic and are to be resolved by DM fiat, if critical to the action (that is what the DM is there for).

the angle December 23rd, 2009 12:54 PM

I'd say atpollard has it exactly right.

Steve

Shadowfax December 23rd, 2009 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supplement Four (Post 338856)
For those of you familiar with AD&D 2E, how do you read the combat round procedure. More specfically, where does movement take place?

AD&D Combat Round
1. DM decides secretly on NPC/Monster actions.

2. Players declare actions.

3. Initiative is rolled.

4. Round is resolved.


I would think that movement takes place after initiative is rolled when the round is resolved, but some of the examples in the rule book seem to hint towards a type of movement phase that happens during the Declaration step.

The example in the book has a dwarf fighter declarig that he's charging some Orc's, and the player playing the mage decides not to declare that the mage is starting to cast a fireball for fear of hitting the dwarf.

This would indicate that the dwarf moved, others moved after him, then initiative is rolled and attacks are resolved.

Of course, that example uses the game's default initiative rules were only one initiative throw is made for each side, allowing an entire side to go first or last.

I've tried to find some clarifcation on this on the net, but, so far, to no avail.
Your thoughts?

Melée (The Fantasy Trip) was better combat was resolved according to dexterity rounds. That means, that the characters with the highest adjusted dexterities (adjusted for armor and encumberance) went first. Characters, who had the same DX could either roll off or go simultaneously.

We added the rule that missilers (archers, wizards casting spells, knife and boomerang throwers and the like) went before people with Melee weapons and people with polearms always got to go before people with shorter weapons.

In AD&D 2E we played it so that everyone rolled a die for initiative ties went simultaniously, but if I recall there is some kind of a rule in the DMG or PHB about segments and when characters get to do what. I just can't remember for sure it was a very long time ago and I try to foget that I played that game at all.

the angle December 23rd, 2009 07:16 PM

2E was a narrative game. The combat sequence was kept vague intentionally so that DMs would have maximum leeway to interpret things for the best dramatic effect. In the example you cited, the key element is that the dwarf's player just shouted "Charge!" and rushed in. He could just as easily have said, "I pause a moment to give the wizard a chance to hit them with a fireball, then charge!" ... but he didn't. His narration indicated that he wanted to hit the enemy as fast as possible, without waiting for the wizard, so that's the way the DM ran it. That part of the sequence had nothing to do with the initiative roll itself.

Steve

Supplement Four December 23rd, 2009 07:30 PM

I'm trying to understand the rule before I change it. Too often GMs (I know I have in the past) change things before really getting to know RAW.

The problem with the AD&D 2E combat rules is that: it's not clear what is intended by RAW.

For example, a dwarf fighter and human mage round the bend of a sewer and see two trolls and three orcs. The rules can be interpreted two different ways:



Version 1

GM decides that the two trolls will charge into the party, one going after each character, because they regenerate. They're not scared. The orcs will enter the fray more cautiously, behind the trolls. The GM keeps this secret, though, of course, playing it out in the round.

So, the GM says, "You see the orcs and trolls, and they see YOU! The sound of steel against leather echos in the sewer as the orcs draw their choppers. The trolls begin to run, using their hands and feet, straight at you--one towards each of you. What are you going to do?"

Now, the players declare.

Dwarf says: Screw the troll, there's orcs out there! I'm charging them!

So the dwarf moves his movement, following the charge rules, placing the dwarf right next to the closest orc.

Mage says: Crap, I was going to fireball them. Sounds like I'm seeing the troll charge me. I have nothing to set against a charge. I'm throwing Mirrior Image.



Now, the GM has the monsters move. One troll moves to the orc, but he's not charging now because the orc basically came to him.

The second troll charges the mage.

Of the three orcs, one is now engaged in melee with the dwarf (as the dwarf charged him). His orc buddies move up to pound on the dwarf as well--the orcs like the safety in numbers.



Now we roll initiative (Individual Initiative) to see what happens when. The dwarf throws for his charge, and the three orcs throw for their swings, while the troll throws for his claw/claw/bite.

With the mage, she throws for her spell while the troll throws for his attack.





That's one way of reading the AD&D 2E rules: Movement happens before initiative as the players declare. An example in the book supports this interpretation.





Version 2

GM decides that the two trolls will charge into the party, one going after each character, because they regenerate. They're not scared. The orcs will enter the fray more cautiously, behind the trolls. The GM keeps this secret, though, of course, playing it out in the round.

So, the GM says, "You see the orcs and trolls, and they see YOU! The sound of steel against leather echos in the sewer as the orcs draw their choppers. The trolls begin to run, using their hands and feet, straight at you--one towards each of you. What are you going to do?"

Now, the players declare.

Dwarf says: Screw the troll, there's orcs out there! I'm charging them!

Dwarf does not actually move. He's only declaring what he'll do when it's his turn, decided by initiative.

Mage says: Crap, I was going to fireball them. Sounds like I'm seeing the troll charge me. I have nothing to set against a charge. I'm throwing Mirrior Image.



Now we roll initiative (Individual Initiative) to see what happens when.

Troll attacking mage moves first. Initiative 4.

Then Dwarf. Initiative 5.

Then Mage. Initiative 6.

Then Troll attacking Dwarf. Initiative 10.

Then the three orcs--all of them moving after the second troll. Initiatives 11, 12, and 14.


Troll charges the mage. If any of is attacks are succesful, the mage blows the Mirror Image spell.

Dwarf charges Orc.

Mage casts spell, if it wasn't interrupted by the troll's charge.

Troll moves to the dwarf and attacks.

Orc moves to dwarf and attacks.

Charged orc attacks dwarf, if that orc still lives after the charge.

Last orc moves to dwarf and attacks.

In this version, movement happens after initiaive.

Like I said, both versions seem to reflect the rules (thus my original question).

aramis December 23rd, 2009 07:43 PM

the problem with 2E basic initiative is that it was never intended to be used.

The default mode in practice was the "individual weapon speeds"...
1d10 + Reaction Adjustment + Weapon Speed is rolled after declaring actions, then done in ascending order.

Spells weapon speed is casting time in segments.

Supplement Four December 23rd, 2009 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 338987)
The default mode in practice was the "individual weapon speeds"...
1d10 + Reaction Adjustment + Weapon Speed is rolled after declaring actions, then done in ascending order.

Spells weapon speed is casting time in segments.

Couple of corrections, here, Wil.

"Segments" are from 1E AD&D. Segments are an actual measure of time--a "segment" of a combat round that represent 10 seconds of time.

That concept was thrown out with 2E AD&D.



Second, Reaction Adjustment in 2E is only used for Surprise, not initiative (although it was used for initiative in 1E).

BlackBat242 December 24th, 2009 12:08 AM

No, 2E kept segments... see spell casting times.


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