Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   The SMG has been found (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=16727)

Allensh August 19th, 2008 01:27 PM

The SMG has been found
 
Over on the Mongoose board, in a thread I started, MongooseBry has stated that he felt that the SMG fit better under auto-carbine. I have actually heard them called that elsewhere which is why I felt that this might have been the case.

Therefore, we now know what happened to the SMG.

Allen

Andrew Boulton August 19th, 2008 02:30 PM

No, carbines are light, shorter-bbl rifles, firing rifle ammo.

SMGs are smaller, usually full-auto, and fire pistol ammo.

There is an overlap, but they aren't the same.

Allensh August 19th, 2008 02:55 PM

Agreed. From a game perspective one wonders if there would have been much difference in the stats though. The thread over there does include some stats for a TL6 SMG.

Allen

far-trader August 19th, 2008 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allensh (Post 277471)
From a game perspective one wonders if there would have been much difference in the stats though...

Allen

But that way lies the madness of "GUN: Roll 1D damage." to cover all types of projectile weapons from a holdout derringer to a 50 caliber rifle in combat including fully automatic fire and shotguns ;)

Klaus August 19th, 2008 03:54 PM

In some forces SMGs are being replaced by PDWs or half-size assault rifles.

Eg: P90, L22A2 carbine.

You could argue that the term SMG might be deprecated by TL10, which is at the lower end of the ambient tech of a spacefaring game at least.

The role of the SMG is now being taken up by weapons that do not carry that term, so auto-carbine seems a good catch-all, else we'll have several different weapons with identical stats.

ie: damage and range between pistol and assault rifle (3d6-3 and 3d6; pistol or assault). 3d6-2 and Shotgun seems appropriate enough. At least IMO. :)

In my games, to further differentiate by tech level, I'm house ruling it: TL5-6, 3d6-2/pistol (at that TL the auto-pistol is not Auto); TL7-9, 3d6-2/shotgun; TL10-12, 3d6-2/assault, where assault rifle becomes obsolete as the ACR arrives. At higher TLs the gauss carbine takes over.

far-trader August 19th, 2008 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klaus (Post 277481)
In some forces SMGs are being replaced by PDWs or half-size assault rifles.

Thanks to the development of the bullpup configuration of the weapon, allowing one to essentially design a rifle with the length of a carbine or shorter.

Arguing that the SMG is deprecated by TL ignores the issue that the game (MGT at least in this case) is supposed to be providing a background for any sci-fi game. So if they include early TLs as possible they have to address that. "Losing" the SMG is a mistake and they and the frothing fans should just admit it and move on. Not keep creating new ways to defend the mistake.

Or should we be asking why they have TL5 handguns when obviously these would be deprecated by the TL10 gauss pistol?

Yes, the role of the SMG is being filled by bullpup assault rifles. Because you get a better weapon in the same relative form factor. Once the bullpup config is "invented" but not before.

Auto-carbine is a poor catch all imo. Carbine simply means short rifle. An auto-carbine is a very different thing from an SMG.

An SMG should have the same damage as a pistol. A little better range. And full auto fire benefits.

An auto-carbine should have the same damage as a rifle. A little worse range. And full auto fire benefits.

See how they are not the same, even though the very different weapons are used in the same role?

Klaus August 19th, 2008 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by far-trader (Post 277484)
Yes, the role of the SMG is being filled by bullpup assault rifles. Because you get a better weapon in the same relative form factor. Once the bullpup config is "invented" but not before.

Bullpup's been around since 1901. The inspiration for the ACR (at least regarding the artwork), the EM2, was around in the early 50's. Many of the 'short' assault rifles are not bullpup, also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by far-trader (Post 277484)
Auto-carbine is a poor catch all imo. Carbine simply means short rifle. An auto-carbine is a very different thing from an SMG.

An SMG should have the same damage as a pistol. A little better range. And full auto fire benefits.

An auto-carbine should have the same damage as a rifle. A little worse range. And full auto fire benefits.

See how they are not the same, even though the very different weapons are used in the same role?

I know they are not the same. The Walther PPK has got very different performance to the .45 ACP. A Bergman MP-18 is very different to a P90. RPGs do not model this well, Traveller included. It's only ever a very rough approximation. [edit] Semi-auto SMGs are called carbines, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine#Other_carbines

And I don't think it's 'frothing fans' - it's more some people pointing out that the SMG class has been covered in the rules, when some folk thought it hadn't. Personally, I'd have included the SMG as a low tech auto-carbine, just to keep the peace, if anything. But the weapon effectively exists now within the rules. The exact terminology is, of course, up to the ref.

Border Reiver August 19th, 2008 05:03 PM

PDW's and Assault Carbines
 
PDW's are SMGs. FULL STOP. They use pistol ammunition and to be used properly you should fire them from the shoulder. Fancy ergonomics and marketing might make you think you are getting a revolutionary firearm but it is not. The MP-7 and P-90 were revolutionary because of their ammunition (which are also used in pistols), higher muzzle velocity and greater penetration (from what I remember from my contact the P-90 is a bit of a marketing con, after the initial sales and trials they redesigned the 5.7mm round with a lower anti-armour capability and refitted the p-90 for the new bullet, a factor which may have influenced the MOD ditching it for the MP-7). There are other weapons out there that call themselves PDWs but they are just SMGs using conventional pistol ammo and with conventional layouts.

Assault Carbines are exactly as they say on the tin. A cut down assault rifle that cuts down on its accurate range but is still good out to a couple of hundred meters. It has all the recoil of the full size version in a compact package, positives and negatives. Many see them as replacements for SMG's but they are less easily handled despite their size and the ammo is much heavier.

Border Reiver August 19th, 2008 05:06 PM

Oh and I'm quite happy with the current definitions of auto carbine and auto pistol though it could have been done better. Golan's definition for example.

Klaus August 19th, 2008 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Border Reiver (Post 277490)
Oh and I'm quite happy with the current definitions of auto carbine and auto pistol though it could have been done better. Golan's definition for example.

I'll agree with that.

Weapon terminology isn't clear cut, as you say. One man's SMG is another man's PDW (SMG is easier off the tongue and sounds nastier, thought :)).

Carbine as a term has been often very loosely applied, too. In fact a full size assault rifle could be (and has, I believe) called to a carbine when compared with a battle rifle or bolt action. Different armies and different nations also have somewhat different terminologies, and various legalities can affect the terms too.


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