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-   -   The Rebellion and World War One? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=11223)

Lord Iron Wolf March 19th, 2005 05:21 PM

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

Lord Iron Wolf March 19th, 2005 05:21 PM

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

Lord Iron Wolf March 19th, 2005 05:21 PM

Just a thought to the group. I'm thinking without the virus, the fleets would of battled each other to the exhaustion of men, supplies and vehicles. The war not being won as much as simply drawing lines and the combatants simply signing an armistice(sp) because they could no longer prosecute the War of Imperial Succession.

In recent history the only parallel would be World War I/The Great War. But this was simply a chance for a new generation to prepare to arm and finish the damn thing.

Would looking at the Rebellion and WWI be totally off or are there parallels?

Lord Iron Wolf

kaladorn March 19th, 2005 09:27 PM

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you [img]smile.gif[/img] <no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

kaladorn March 19th, 2005 09:27 PM

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you [img]smile.gif[/img] <no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

kaladorn March 19th, 2005 09:27 PM

Hmm, this is one Larsen should put his thinker on for. And a few others.

My first thought is I really like Larsen's Wounded Collosus. I wish he'd really detailed it up a bit more, mind you [img]smile.gif[/img] <no hint here Bill, no not by half!>

Anyway, what I was really thinking when I read this was this wasn't a solution I think anyone has seriously considered (or that I've seen discussed, at any rate). Rather than 'grind each other into nothing, revert to barbarism' or 'reunite the empire', what about the very option you propose?

People agreeing (whether they really want to or are just tired out) to stop fighting, to start rebuilding, to agree that everyone should just have a different polity (thus we have 8 or 9 large remainder states, plus a whole new scad of buffers and independents) and then having them knock out some mutual defence pacts, some non-aggression treaties, a cease fire, and get trading back on line and the lifeblood of the OTU flowing again. This might be something like some of the historic trading leagues, with lots of different people represented.

Now sure, on the one hand, the powers that be want to finish it. Some of them. But after a few years of peace, some may discover they're just as happy at peace and have enough to worry about. Some may discover that their *people* are happy at peace, and aren't anxious to go back to the war. Some may discover that their *megacorps* and other trading interests are so happy to be back in the black, that they'll pressure the government not to go back to conflict.

The more I consider it, the more I think this is possibly one of the sanest solutions to MT I have *ever* heard of.

Furthermore, it would lead to a sort of European feel, with lots of small allied and opposed states, with independents, with all the 'shake up' the MT designers were looking for, with the chance to rebuild from a bit of a tough blow (good for the TNE crowd to get behind, though not quite the apocalypse of the collapse and hard times), it could avoid the whole virus (or come up with a technowhizbang solution to deal with it), and it could allow for a lot of free wheeling trading, intriguing, and small military adventures. For those wanting stable territory, there are quite a few large empirelets that each have several stable sectors. There are frontiers for people who want them. And there are wilds.

Oddly, I think this is one of the most thoughtful injections into the MT discussion since I've rejoined the traveller community 2 or 3 years ago after a long hiatus in other games.

This merits discussion and thought.

aramis March 21st, 2005 01:44 PM

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

aramis March 21st, 2005 01:44 PM

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

aramis March 21st, 2005 01:44 PM

The problems is that two certain madmen CAN'T accept the status quo:
1) Lucan. He's so psychotic, that he MUST have the whole shebang or die trying.

2) Dulinor: if he doesn't at least take Lucan's territory, he's failed his principles.

A couple would be unwilling to let things lie, and as soo as they had fleets, would probably fire right back up:
1) the Vilani. THey need more markets, and bigger markets, in order to make more money. Their neighbors are unlikely to allow them in without some form of either conflict or assimilation.
2) The solomani: heir drive will cause them to expand if they can. But it will be in explosive, nova-like waves.

kaladorn March 21st, 2005 02:14 PM

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

kaladorn March 21st, 2005 02:14 PM

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

kaladorn March 21st, 2005 02:14 PM

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

daryen March 22nd, 2005 10:34 PM

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

daryen March 22nd, 2005 10:34 PM

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

daryen March 22nd, 2005 10:34 PM

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.
Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.
Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.
Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 11:58 AM

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 11:58 AM

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 11:58 AM

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.

daryen March 23rd, 2005 01:25 PM

I don't know that moving the point of departure up changes anything for Dulinor or Lucan. Assuming we don't change their characters (which presents a plethora of new options), they are both pretty much set to run their course.

Lucan is flat out nuts. Killing his brother somehow unhinged him. After that, he was making very few rational decisions. If he doesn't kill Varian, then who knows what happens?

Dulinor is committed the moment his bullet hits the Emperor/clone. Once that happens, he must either succeed in taking the throne, or his life, legacy, dynasty, everything for him, is forfeit.

The only thing I can think of changing that would make much difference is to change Lucan into a rational human being. Of course, if he is rational, then he gets confirmed, the other parties get in line behind him, and the Rebellion never happens. Instead we get the Second Ilelish Revolt.

daryen March 23rd, 2005 01:25 PM

I don't know that moving the point of departure up changes anything for Dulinor or Lucan. Assuming we don't change their characters (which presents a plethora of new options), they are both pretty much set to run their course.

Lucan is flat out nuts. Killing his brother somehow unhinged him. After that, he was making very few rational decisions. If he doesn't kill Varian, then who knows what happens?

Dulinor is committed the moment his bullet hits the Emperor/clone. Once that happens, he must either succeed in taking the throne, or his life, legacy, dynasty, everything for him, is forfeit.

The only thing I can think of changing that would make much difference is to change Lucan into a rational human being. Of course, if he is rational, then he gets confirmed, the other parties get in line behind him, and the Rebellion never happens. Instead we get the Second Ilelish Revolt.

daryen March 23rd, 2005 01:25 PM

I don't know that moving the point of departure up changes anything for Dulinor or Lucan. Assuming we don't change their characters (which presents a plethora of new options), they are both pretty much set to run their course.

Lucan is flat out nuts. Killing his brother somehow unhinged him. After that, he was making very few rational decisions. If he doesn't kill Varian, then who knows what happens?

Dulinor is committed the moment his bullet hits the Emperor/clone. Once that happens, he must either succeed in taking the throne, or his life, legacy, dynasty, everything for him, is forfeit.

The only thing I can think of changing that would make much difference is to change Lucan into a rational human being. Of course, if he is rational, then he gets confirmed, the other parties get in line behind him, and the Rebellion never happens. Instead we get the Second Ilelish Revolt.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 03:20 PM

Ah, Daryen, but that's sort of what I was getting at. The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop. So yes, in effect, I am suggesting an edit. If we're editing around the classical end (or lack thereof) of the Rebellion, maybe some character edits fit into that (assuming we don't have them killed).

Is he nuts? Did killing his Bro do it or was he always a bit unhinged? Or is he just hyper ambitious and a bit sociopathic/psychopathic? He may just not really care much about his brother, other than that 'he got in the way'.

Dulinor is only 'forfeit' if anyone can take him out. If the rest of the Imperial fragments were to go their own way, sure, he'd be unwelcome in Lucanite territory, but there are arguable precedents for the legality of his actions and I'm not sure Norris would give his polity grief it if approached them on good terms. Sure, Norris might not approve, but if having peace meant preventing the backsliding of the overall Imperial population base, even if it does mean they are temporarily broken into other polities, he'd probably be okay with that.

Sure, Dulinor personally might consider himself a failure and choose to step down or pop himself off. But he might just accept that he failed and revert to worrying about his people, the ostensible underlying reason for his actions.

When I have some time (this weekend if I have some cycles), I'll try to sketch out an alternative timeline and some events/changes that might make this a reasonable outcome.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 03:20 PM

Ah, Daryen, but that's sort of what I was getting at. The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop. So yes, in effect, I am suggesting an edit. If we're editing around the classical end (or lack thereof) of the Rebellion, maybe some character edits fit into that (assuming we don't have them killed).

Is he nuts? Did killing his Bro do it or was he always a bit unhinged? Or is he just hyper ambitious and a bit sociopathic/psychopathic? He may just not really care much about his brother, other than that 'he got in the way'.

Dulinor is only 'forfeit' if anyone can take him out. If the rest of the Imperial fragments were to go their own way, sure, he'd be unwelcome in Lucanite territory, but there are arguable precedents for the legality of his actions and I'm not sure Norris would give his polity grief it if approached them on good terms. Sure, Norris might not approve, but if having peace meant preventing the backsliding of the overall Imperial population base, even if it does mean they are temporarily broken into other polities, he'd probably be okay with that.

Sure, Dulinor personally might consider himself a failure and choose to step down or pop himself off. But he might just accept that he failed and revert to worrying about his people, the ostensible underlying reason for his actions.

When I have some time (this weekend if I have some cycles), I'll try to sketch out an alternative timeline and some events/changes that might make this a reasonable outcome.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 03:20 PM

Ah, Daryen, but that's sort of what I was getting at. The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop. So yes, in effect, I am suggesting an edit. If we're editing around the classical end (or lack thereof) of the Rebellion, maybe some character edits fit into that (assuming we don't have them killed).

Is he nuts? Did killing his Bro do it or was he always a bit unhinged? Or is he just hyper ambitious and a bit sociopathic/psychopathic? He may just not really care much about his brother, other than that 'he got in the way'.

Dulinor is only 'forfeit' if anyone can take him out. If the rest of the Imperial fragments were to go their own way, sure, he'd be unwelcome in Lucanite territory, but there are arguable precedents for the legality of his actions and I'm not sure Norris would give his polity grief it if approached them on good terms. Sure, Norris might not approve, but if having peace meant preventing the backsliding of the overall Imperial population base, even if it does mean they are temporarily broken into other polities, he'd probably be okay with that.

Sure, Dulinor personally might consider himself a failure and choose to step down or pop himself off. But he might just accept that he failed and revert to worrying about his people, the ostensible underlying reason for his actions.

When I have some time (this weekend if I have some cycles), I'll try to sketch out an alternative timeline and some events/changes that might make this a reasonable outcome.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop.
First of all: nobody had heard of Dulinor or Lucan before MT. They were created then.

Rebellion Sourcebook is the original source for Lucan's character. It emphasises: the ends justify the means, and policy comes from the fickle mind of the Emperor. It also calls him a spoilt brat.

So Lucan began as a despot ruling by arbitrary whim. That can't/shouldn't be changed.

Later on, of course, he appears to have deteriorated further. This bit could be lost.

I can't see him accepting peace. I _can_ see him being assassinated by his own supporters.

As for Dulinor...

I've always felt Dulinor's big weakness lay in the contradiction between his supposedly democratic ideals and the fact that his support lies in the Imperial apparatus, that is, the nobility. His reforms, if actually implemented, would have the effect of reducing the power of his key supporters, which would give them reason to reconsider their support.

The result of this is that his reforms are likely to be stillborn, or at least hopelessly compromised. Even so, his rhetoric about them is likely disturb at least some of his nobles...

If he actually tries to implement his reforms seriously, he is guaranteed to run into opposition from the nobility. That is, from his Admirals, senior bureaucrats, Subsector Dukes, his Intelligence chiefs, the commander of his bodyguard, and so on.

Essentially, he has the choice of either facing down a coup, or backing off and becoming a lame duck "Emperor".

And even if he succeeds, the results aren't likely to be what people expect. His reforms would inevitably shift power even further towards the rulers of the high population worlds, at the expense of the other worlds and the Imperium itself. At the same time, depending on how "democratic" you want to read his intentions as being, he is trying to replace these rulers.

This is a recipe for a terrible snafu.

Norris was able to get away with it under the whip of Virus. There was doubtless more to the story than a simple decree, but we will never know the details.

It's a pretty safe bet that Dulinor's agenda would either be thrown out the window, lead to massive conflict, and/or possibly result in his fall.

The interaction and chronological synchronisation of that with the processes at work in Lucan's Imperium can be left to the scholar...

alanb March 23rd, 2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop.
First of all: nobody had heard of Dulinor or Lucan before MT. They were created then.

Rebellion Sourcebook is the original source for Lucan's character. It emphasises: the ends justify the means, and policy comes from the fickle mind of the Emperor. It also calls him a spoilt brat.

So Lucan began as a despot ruling by arbitrary whim. That can't/shouldn't be changed.

Later on, of course, he appears to have deteriorated further. This bit could be lost.

I can't see him accepting peace. I _can_ see him being assassinated by his own supporters.

As for Dulinor...

I've always felt Dulinor's big weakness lay in the contradiction between his supposedly democratic ideals and the fact that his support lies in the Imperial apparatus, that is, the nobility. His reforms, if actually implemented, would have the effect of reducing the power of his key supporters, which would give them reason to reconsider their support.

The result of this is that his reforms are likely to be stillborn, or at least hopelessly compromised. Even so, his rhetoric about them is likely disturb at least some of his nobles...

If he actually tries to implement his reforms seriously, he is guaranteed to run into opposition from the nobility. That is, from his Admirals, senior bureaucrats, Subsector Dukes, his Intelligence chiefs, the commander of his bodyguard, and so on.

Essentially, he has the choice of either facing down a coup, or backing off and becoming a lame duck "Emperor".

And even if he succeeds, the results aren't likely to be what people expect. His reforms would inevitably shift power even further towards the rulers of the high population worlds, at the expense of the other worlds and the Imperium itself. At the same time, depending on how "democratic" you want to read his intentions as being, he is trying to replace these rulers.

This is a recipe for a terrible snafu.

Norris was able to get away with it under the whip of Virus. There was doubtless more to the story than a simple decree, but we will never know the details.

It's a pretty safe bet that Dulinor's agenda would either be thrown out the window, lead to massive conflict, and/or possibly result in his fall.

The interaction and chronological synchronisation of that with the processes at work in Lucan's Imperium can be left to the scholar...

alanb March 23rd, 2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The character is established over time. Before the MT setting's first page, I'd never heard of Dulinor or Lucan. Before the various DGP articles outlining their policies and opinions about one another, I only had vague feelings about them. Before subsequent developments, I wouldn't have considered Lucan a total fruitloop.
First of all: nobody had heard of Dulinor or Lucan before MT. They were created then.

Rebellion Sourcebook is the original source for Lucan's character. It emphasises: the ends justify the means, and policy comes from the fickle mind of the Emperor. It also calls him a spoilt brat.

So Lucan began as a despot ruling by arbitrary whim. That can't/shouldn't be changed.

Later on, of course, he appears to have deteriorated further. This bit could be lost.

I can't see him accepting peace. I _can_ see him being assassinated by his own supporters.

As for Dulinor...

I've always felt Dulinor's big weakness lay in the contradiction between his supposedly democratic ideals and the fact that his support lies in the Imperial apparatus, that is, the nobility. His reforms, if actually implemented, would have the effect of reducing the power of his key supporters, which would give them reason to reconsider their support.

The result of this is that his reforms are likely to be stillborn, or at least hopelessly compromised. Even so, his rhetoric about them is likely disturb at least some of his nobles...

If he actually tries to implement his reforms seriously, he is guaranteed to run into opposition from the nobility. That is, from his Admirals, senior bureaucrats, Subsector Dukes, his Intelligence chiefs, the commander of his bodyguard, and so on.

Essentially, he has the choice of either facing down a coup, or backing off and becoming a lame duck "Emperor".

And even if he succeeds, the results aren't likely to be what people expect. His reforms would inevitably shift power even further towards the rulers of the high population worlds, at the expense of the other worlds and the Imperium itself. At the same time, depending on how "democratic" you want to read his intentions as being, he is trying to replace these rulers.

This is a recipe for a terrible snafu.

Norris was able to get away with it under the whip of Virus. There was doubtless more to the story than a simple decree, but we will never know the details.

It's a pretty safe bet that Dulinor's agenda would either be thrown out the window, lead to massive conflict, and/or possibly result in his fall.

The interaction and chronological synchronisation of that with the processes at work in Lucan's Imperium can be left to the scholar...

aramis March 23rd, 2005 06:26 PM

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

aramis March 23rd, 2005 06:26 PM

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

aramis March 23rd, 2005 06:26 PM

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 07:36 PM

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 07:36 PM

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 07:36 PM

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 09:59 PM

Well, Tranian's a later day construct (ie I don't know as if he is actually referred to other than GT or later T4+ dates... I don't recall seeing him mentioned in MT). That doesn't discount him, but I was thinking initially of working mostly within the list of available candidates inside MT itself.

Margaret might be an arguably more legitemate heir. Or maybe Lucan sired a child before being whacked. And maybe whoever steps into his place takes over as 'Regent', still maintaining Lucan's legitimacy as Emperor, hence the heir's eventual legitemate succession. This could introduce a period of calm while the Regent grows up....

I'm not sure if I dislike or like Margaret. I dislike some things attributed to her, but they may be hostile spin rather than fact.

Of course, my favourite noble is Craig, from what I know. He seems closest to my idea of what a noble is supposed to be, perhaps Norris or Brzrk in second and third (either or).

A different Rebellion might never see the development and release of the Virus. So no problem to clean up....

I actually felt bad when Brzrk got killed off... I thought that was cheap....

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 09:59 PM

Well, Tranian's a later day construct (ie I don't know as if he is actually referred to other than GT or later T4+ dates... I don't recall seeing him mentioned in MT). That doesn't discount him, but I was thinking initially of working mostly within the list of available candidates inside MT itself.

Margaret might be an arguably more legitemate heir. Or maybe Lucan sired a child before being whacked. And maybe whoever steps into his place takes over as 'Regent', still maintaining Lucan's legitimacy as Emperor, hence the heir's eventual legitemate succession. This could introduce a period of calm while the Regent grows up....

I'm not sure if I dislike or like Margaret. I dislike some things attributed to her, but they may be hostile spin rather than fact.

Of course, my favourite noble is Craig, from what I know. He seems closest to my idea of what a noble is supposed to be, perhaps Norris or Brzrk in second and third (either or).

A different Rebellion might never see the development and release of the Virus. So no problem to clean up....

I actually felt bad when Brzrk got killed off... I thought that was cheap....

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 09:59 PM

Well, Tranian's a later day construct (ie I don't know as if he is actually referred to other than GT or later T4+ dates... I don't recall seeing him mentioned in MT). That doesn't discount him, but I was thinking initially of working mostly within the list of available candidates inside MT itself.

Margaret might be an arguably more legitemate heir. Or maybe Lucan sired a child before being whacked. And maybe whoever steps into his place takes over as 'Regent', still maintaining Lucan's legitimacy as Emperor, hence the heir's eventual legitemate succession. This could introduce a period of calm while the Regent grows up....

I'm not sure if I dislike or like Margaret. I dislike some things attributed to her, but they may be hostile spin rather than fact.

Of course, my favourite noble is Craig, from what I know. He seems closest to my idea of what a noble is supposed to be, perhaps Norris or Brzrk in second and third (either or).

A different Rebellion might never see the development and release of the Virus. So no problem to clean up....

I actually felt bad when Brzrk got killed off... I thought that was cheap....

Border Reiver March 23rd, 2005 10:18 PM

Archduke Tranian is referred to by name in the Rebellion Sourcebook page 45 as an ally of Lucan along with Adair of Sol, he was the one noble who couldn't back down from supporting Lucan as he had proclaimed him Emperor.

I like to think that Strephon would have held out long enough to start to receive the fragmented backing of Norris, Craig & perhaps even Margaret or the successor to Brzrk.

Border Reiver March 23rd, 2005 10:18 PM

Archduke Tranian is referred to by name in the Rebellion Sourcebook page 45 as an ally of Lucan along with Adair of Sol, he was the one noble who couldn't back down from supporting Lucan as he had proclaimed him Emperor.

I like to think that Strephon would have held out long enough to start to receive the fragmented backing of Norris, Craig & perhaps even Margaret or the successor to Brzrk.

Border Reiver March 23rd, 2005 10:18 PM

Archduke Tranian is referred to by name in the Rebellion Sourcebook page 45 as an ally of Lucan along with Adair of Sol, he was the one noble who couldn't back down from supporting Lucan as he had proclaimed him Emperor.

I like to think that Strephon would have held out long enough to start to receive the fragmented backing of Norris, Craig & perhaps even Margaret or the successor to Brzrk.

kaladorn March 24th, 2005 12:43 AM

Ah, okay. He might have been, at that. He got some sort of sidebar mention, didn't he...? Hmmm.

Okay, anyway, he got more discussion in GT if I recollect correctly.

You know, I always thought the original Strephon was a fake (which he was, then later was not). Of course, Longbow II was a long way in coming to light...

I'm just not sure how Strephon could take over again after he made such a bollix of the whole business. His judgement was pretty poor - he was gone, he had allowed regionalism to flourish in the IG, he had trusted Dulinor but not listened to him (very much), and his screw up had cost the Empire an awful lot of dead people. How do you get back up on the horse after that? I'm not sure you can and I'm not sure I'd trust someone that had that kind of record ever again (as a peon in his realm).

I think once he'd dropped the ball so badly, new blood of some kind was required....

kaladorn March 24th, 2005 12:43 AM

Ah, okay. He might have been, at that. He got some sort of sidebar mention, didn't he...? Hmmm.

Okay, anyway, he got more discussion in GT if I recollect correctly.

You know, I always thought the original Strephon was a fake (which he was, then later was not). Of course, Longbow II was a long way in coming to light...

I'm just not sure how Strephon could take over again after he made such a bollix of the whole business. His judgement was pretty poor - he was gone, he had allowed regionalism to flourish in the IG, he had trusted Dulinor but not listened to him (very much), and his screw up had cost the Empire an awful lot of dead people. How do you get back up on the horse after that? I'm not sure you can and I'm not sure I'd trust someone that had that kind of record ever again (as a peon in his realm).

I think once he'd dropped the ball so badly, new blood of some kind was required....

kaladorn March 24th, 2005 12:43 AM

Ah, okay. He might have been, at that. He got some sort of sidebar mention, didn't he...? Hmmm.

Okay, anyway, he got more discussion in GT if I recollect correctly.

You know, I always thought the original Strephon was a fake (which he was, then later was not). Of course, Longbow II was a long way in coming to light...

I'm just not sure how Strephon could take over again after he made such a bollix of the whole business. His judgement was pretty poor - he was gone, he had allowed regionalism to flourish in the IG, he had trusted Dulinor but not listened to him (very much), and his screw up had cost the Empire an awful lot of dead people. How do you get back up on the horse after that? I'm not sure you can and I'm not sure I'd trust someone that had that kind of record ever again (as a peon in his realm).

I think once he'd dropped the ball so badly, new blood of some kind was required....

alanb March 24th, 2005 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Ah, okay. He might have been, at that. He got some sort of sidebar mention, didn't he...? Hmmm.
He had a reasonable mention in Rebellion Sourcebook, in the section on Lucan's faction. Essentially, he was the only Archduke (besides Adair of Sol, who wasn't in any position to support anyone!) to support Lucan. He was an example of the honourable noble doing what he felt was right, even if Lucan was a total jerk.

While he wouldn't break with Lucan unless Lucan broke with him first, he would be in a good position to inherit control of the better bits of Lucan's faction once Lucan stops a bullet.

Of course, potentially he might then declare for Margaret! She is, after all, the next in the Alkhalikoi line of succession. But that would be a rather suicidally formalistic measure, that he might not be willing to take.

Either way, he's one of the rare examples of named second tier leaders we have, so he needs to be considered when we ponder possible outcomes of the Rebellion.

As for Strephon: forget it. Real or fake, he ain't comin' back.

alanb March 24th, 2005 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Ah, okay. He might have been, at that. He got some sort of sidebar mention, didn't he...? Hmmm.
He had a reasonable mention in Rebellion Sourcebook, in the section on Lucan's faction. Essentially, he was the only Archduke (besides Adair of Sol, who wasn't in any position to support anyone!) to support Lucan. He was an example of the honourable noble doing what he felt was right, even if Lucan was a total jerk.

While he wouldn't break with Lucan unless Lucan broke with him first, he would be in a good position to inherit control of the better bits of Lucan's faction once Lucan stops a bullet.

Of course, potentially he might then declare for Margaret! She is, after all, the next in the Alkhalikoi line of succession. But that would be a rather suicidally formalistic measure, that he might not be willing to take.

Either way, he's one of the rare examples of named second tier leaders we have, so he needs to be considered when we ponder possible outcomes of the Rebellion.

As for Strephon: forget it. Real or fake, he ain't comin' back.


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