Citizens of the Imperium

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aramis March 23rd, 2005 06:26 PM

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

aramis March 23rd, 2005 06:26 PM

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

aramis March 23rd, 2005 06:26 PM

Populism and Demos are related, but different.

Dulinor is NOT democratizing his domain. He is, however, instituting populist reforms. (A historical parallel is the institution of bread and circuses in Rome: it is populist, but clearly not democratic, as the point was to keep the masses happy so they didn't apply demos and evict the patrician class.)

Norris, btw, is the big demos fan. In the OTU he ERADICATES the noble authority by the time he steps down... turning the regency into a constitutional monarchy with extensive monarchical powers. Many of his aims, however, are overlapping.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 07:36 PM

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 07:36 PM

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 07:36 PM

An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

Then another might come to power who was more reasonable. He still couldn't really support Dulinor as that would imply he'd have to bow to him, but he could agree to get along with a Dulinor-sized fragment (or a Dulinor-spawned fragment if Dulinor is himself removed or steps down).

The other aspect could be letting Dulinor exit with some grace - admitting their were some issues in the Imperium and that there was stagnation and maybe instituting some of his chosen goals, while also saying his methods suck and he can't be the successor. That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

There are probably ways to permute the situation to generate any of N outcomes, of which some subset P are reasonably plausible. I think the thought excercise here is to figure out a passable way to get from the assassination to a meta-stable configuration with multiple domain sized remnant states that can (at least for a time) agree to coexist and to restart trade and whatnot.

One of the things to keep in mind is that there have been for some time beforehand some strong regional forces. The Imperium was, in some ways, held together by the weight of tradition and inertia. These regionalizing forces could conceivably form a metastable alternative.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaladorn:
An interesting twist on removing Lucan would be letting the Brotherhood of Varian get their pound of flesh. It would be a sort of poetic justice.

...
That might offer a path for a Wounded Collosus solution under Duke Craig or Norris even. Or some other lesser known Imperial relative.

I certainly agree with letting the Brothers of Varian whack Lucan. It might be a little less probable than having Lucan be whacked by his own supporters, but it is certainly possible, and a better story. So that's the way I would go, regardless of the details of the rest of the story.

Unfortunately, Lucan's legitimate heir seems to be Margaret! His most obvious de facto heir seems to be Archduke Tranian of Gateway.

I can't see Craig or Norris ending up at the top of the pile. Margaret, Tranian, Isis or Admiral Hutara are all more likely, IMHO. Margaret through "legitimacy", Tranian through de facto inheritance from Lucan, Isis through legitimate inheritance from Dulinor, and Hutara through a coup against Dulinor or Isis.

Frankly, I wouldn't want Margaret to win. I dislike her almost as much as Dulinor and Lucan.

But then, I'm not a big fan of Wounded Colossus outcomes in general.

One I might be tempted to accept would be Isis/Hutara/Tranian. One Empress, two Admirals/Archdukes... Plus Adair of Sol, and maybe Craig and Norris, but they're all too far away and too "busy" to really matter. And Margaret is still the "legitimate" Empress.

I still would prefer Dulinor to die as in the OTU, with only the adjustments necessary to eliminate Virus. After all, nobody has suggested that poor Brzk shouldn't get killed off!

My personal preference is obviously for a setting of relatively stable fragments, rather than
"reunification", but these are really just different settings within a reasonable set of probabilities.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 09:59 PM

Well, Tranian's a later day construct (ie I don't know as if he is actually referred to other than GT or later T4+ dates... I don't recall seeing him mentioned in MT). That doesn't discount him, but I was thinking initially of working mostly within the list of available candidates inside MT itself.

Margaret might be an arguably more legitemate heir. Or maybe Lucan sired a child before being whacked. And maybe whoever steps into his place takes over as 'Regent', still maintaining Lucan's legitimacy as Emperor, hence the heir's eventual legitemate succession. This could introduce a period of calm while the Regent grows up....

I'm not sure if I dislike or like Margaret. I dislike some things attributed to her, but they may be hostile spin rather than fact.

Of course, my favourite noble is Craig, from what I know. He seems closest to my idea of what a noble is supposed to be, perhaps Norris or Brzrk in second and third (either or).

A different Rebellion might never see the development and release of the Virus. So no problem to clean up....

I actually felt bad when Brzrk got killed off... I thought that was cheap....


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