Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   The Rebellion and World War One? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=11223)

kaladorn March 21st, 2005 02:14 PM

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

kaladorn March 21st, 2005 02:14 PM

There have been many historical Kings who've really, really, really wanted X. But when their own nobles and merchant classes said "nosir, we won't be supporting that", they had to bide their time and live with their angst.

The Vilani would retain their markets at any rate - having different polities does not preclude common trade policy and thus does not preclude access to foreign markets.

Solomani have enough issues with the split in their own confederation between the zealots and the moderates and then throw in the off-Terra groups in the Rim that don't like the balance of power.

You can imagine a scenario where Dulinor gets told in no uncertain terms by his Dukes 'Sorry pal, it was a nice try'. Lucan is a bit tougher nut, but he could be written to be reasonable. Or maybe an 'accident' removes him. Maybe some Admirals rule 'in his name' or a regent takes over. You can imagine both Dulinor and Lucan being ousted by more sane heads in their own states.

A lot of what you need to clean this situation up is a Thomas Thiesman (for those who read Weber) type character - a reformer who is quiet, but willing to do what needs done (ruthlessly if need be) and who knows his end goal is the good of the people, not serving any particular master.

Anyway, if you prefer the Rebellion and Collapse, you've already got such a setting. The idea here is perhaps to explore other alternative endings. I think a bunch of small split polities can be metastable over quite a period of time.

daryen March 22nd, 2005 10:34 PM

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

daryen March 22nd, 2005 10:34 PM

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

daryen March 22nd, 2005 10:34 PM

Looking at Survival Margin one more time (for another thread), it really impressed on me that Dulinor's coronation fleet was his final stand, and he knew it. Assuming no Virus, there were only two possible results.

Either he wins and kills Lucan, thereby "winning" the war of succession (at least over his and Lucan's territories), or his life is forfeit.

If he loses the battle and returns home, he knew he would die. In the Virus timeline, it was by a harvester. But even without Virus, Dulinor knew he was dead; the only question was who was going to kill him.

So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.
Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.
Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

alanb March 23rd, 2005 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daryen:
So Aramis' overall point was correct. The Rebellion situation could not remain static and some factions would be forced to win or die trying.
Yes. This is true for Lucan and Dulinor, IMHO.

As a result, you either have to have one of them win, or both of them eliminated.

Note that you only have to eliminate _them_, not their factions. It would be easy enough to have them succeeded by people that would end the war.

Of course, that "end" could merely be a Korean War-style ceasefire, rather than a "real" peace. The possibility of a new war can always be left open. In fact, it probably should, since that's more interesting.

Most of the other factions were battered around enough to need a breather, so they can be assumed to accept a tacit peace.

The Solomani are the main problem, of course, but we have some "standard" excuses for them stopping with reconquering the old Solomani Sphere.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 11:58 AM

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.

kaladorn March 23rd, 2005 11:58 AM

Two points:

The individuals had issues which would necessitate them being removed, but not necessarily their factions.

The Solomani might well have internal issues that draw their focus inwards.

Another point to consider: Our perceptions of Dulinor and Lucan and what extents they need to go to are married to when we tree-off this alternate history. If it is early enough after the Assassination, then maybe they aren't so polarized that they can't continue as heads of their polities. They get more polarized into 'win or die' as the years go by.


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