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-   -   Did Margaret and Lucan really fight in coreward Fornast? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=39411)

Kilgs September 23rd, 2018 08:03 PM

Did Margaret and Lucan really fight in coreward Fornast?
 
In the Rebellion Sourcebook, there is a map (1118) which shows fighting between Lucan and Margaret way up in the coreward section of Fornast. Basically in the corner between Ley and Antares.

While I like it, it certainly seems odd that she would be pushing fleets way up there unless they got pushed there trying to get to Core.

Is that a typo and supposed to be Antares/Brzk v. Lucan?

GypsyComet September 24th, 2018 01:06 AM

Recall that Margaret was married to, if memory serves, a former Intel type. Sneaking a fleet into a different frontier than your own to wreak a little havok sounds about right. it is also possible that her fleet was heading that way to take out Brzk, likely the weakest (in her eyes) case of the competition, so she and the others could concentrate on Lucan with no "alien" interference. Instead, she found a fleet of Lucan's, which initiated a different dance entirely.

No, I don't have a high opinion of Margaret.

Whipsnade September 24th, 2018 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilgs (Post 593252)
While I like it, it certainly seems odd that she would be pushing fleets way up there unless they got pushed there trying to get to Core.


Have you considered the possibility that those are local forces which declared for Margaret rather than forces dispatched from Delphi by Margaret?

Also, Margaret is married to one of the Tukera heirs. While he may have had a short career in imperial service prior to polishing boardroom chairs and clipping dividend coupons in the family business, it would have been more a matter of form than substance.

BRJN September 24th, 2018 11:09 AM

All of the claimants to the Iridium Throne are trying to gain support throughout the Imperium. That fleet could be official Margaret, or a Tukera subsidiary following their boss' lead, or a bunch of locals who decided that Margaret was the best choice. As far as Lucan's forces care, they all can be described as "traitors who support Margaret."

Margaret, despite her overall naivete, does have flashes of brilliance: she conceives an Imperial Heir, thereby improving her personal claim. Also setting herself up to be an Arbellatra-like 'regency' - which everybody knows brought an end to the last Civil War. A conflict-sick Imperium, especially the debatable between-lands, might go for it. Norris and Daibei could eventually be persuaded to declare loyalty to the heir if they won't declare for her. (Or so she thinks / hopes.)

Kilgs September 24th, 2018 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whipsnade (Post 593260)
Have you considered the possibility that those are local forces which declared for Margaret rather than forces dispatched from Delphi by Margaret?

That's what I came up with as the only plausible answer. From Mgt Journal #1, I had come across this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concise History of the Rebellion
"Margaret’s supporters circulated a confidential message throughout the Imperial Fleets stating her position and urging their support. This resulted in several crucial fleets declaring their allegiance to Margaret.”

It goes on to indicate that her supporters were widespread and located throughout the Imperium so I'm guessing that it is something along those lines.

HOWEVER... in going through all the available Rebellion maps, it's pretty clear that confusion reigned in GDW about what was going down. Seems odd from the guys that brought us the Great Game but some of the maps and statements completely change the battlefields or alter dispositions.

In reviewing it though, I really like the chaos and confusion from comparing sources. It feels like trying to piece together an actual interstellar war where everyone was fighting everyone. Looking back, no one really knows the full picture. The canon history is focused on the Lucan spinward campaigns and Solomani campaigns. Even there, things are confusing but we have a good idea of what was going on but elsewhere throughout the edges of the Imperium... confusion reigns entirely.

Makes it feel epic as a galactic civil war should... and it allows GM's to put together their own events and not conflict with canon. Point being, I was originally irritated there wasn't more information but now I'm very thankful.

(There's also little information regarding what actions Lucan or other factions took against Tukera... or what Tukera did. Did they try to move fleet to Delphi? Were they engaged in pro-Margaret commerce raiding, logistical support, providing communication & coordination... who knows. Lots of room there...)

Kilgs September 24th, 2018 11:37 AM

Here was the other quote... had to find it in my notes. It's from later 1119-1120.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concise History... MegaTrav Journal/1
“[Margaret] slowly and diplomatically absorbed former Imperial assets, bringing starports under her control and taking over naval and scout bases. She has a strong power base amongst nobles in all parts of the Imperium, and being astrographically close to Capital has provided her with a steady stream of defectors fed up with Lucan. Recently, Lucan feared a reconvened Moot would legitimize Margaret’s claim to the throne.”


Whipsnade September 24th, 2018 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilgs (Post 593269)
That's what I came up with as the only plausible answer.


Margaret has always held a certain fascination for me. Not because I ever viewed her as a viable candidate to reunite the Imperium, but because of her willful blindness.

She's the poster child for those I've always referred to as the Fantasists. As your MTJ quotes illustrate, there's a sizeable portion of the Imperium's population ranging from dukes to dishwashers who believe if the clock could only be turned back to 1516 hours on 132-1116 everything will return to normal. The section in MT's Rebellion Sourcebook discussion her faction mentions "business as usual" more than few times. What Margaret and her fellow fantasists don't or, perhaps more accurately, choose not to realize is that you can't unscramble an egg.

The Imperium of 1116 died with Strephon's double just as the Imperium of 606 died with Jacqueline I. Arbellatra, alone of the Emperors of the Flag, realized that and that was part of the reason she succeeded where the others did not. Margaret, plus her supports in Delphi and elsewhere, don't or can't understand that.

Quote:

In reviewing it though, I really like the chaos and confusion from comparing sources.
I think some of the confusion and conflict between sources was done on purpose. Not all, but some.

Kilgs September 24th, 2018 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whipsnade (Post 593277)
I think some of the confusion and conflict between sources was done on purpose. Not all, but some.

Considering the detail-oriented madness of those involved, I wouldn't doubt it.

As for the Fantasist comment, I agree. I really think anyone who doesn't like the Rebellion (not for breaking the Imperium but because they believe it's implausible) should spend some quality with Hard Times.

It provides a reasonable scenario for the mass chaos that erupts... the failure of most factions/nobles/corporations to take into account that it was a true civil war and act accordingly.

GypsyComet September 24th, 2018 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whipsnade (Post 593277)
Arbellatra, alone of the Emperors of the Flag, realized that and that was part of the reason she succeeded where the others did not.

Arbellatra had help in this from a long term observer, it turns out.

Ulsyus September 24th, 2018 11:28 PM

Quote:

With the aid of planners from megacorporations
Hortalez et Cie and Tukera, she (Margaret) used her own considerable
talent for domestic policy to stabilize her position in Delphi
Sector and carefully manage avoluntary retraction from many
of her holdings in Massilia. This moved her out of frequent
contact with Lucan, a primary objective of her defensive (some
would say weak) policy.
...
(From 1122) Remarkably, and to the
consternation of many, her initial policy of refusing to bait
Lucan into vengeful attacks on her areas has proved astoundingly
successful. While Lucan has become embroiled in vendettas
against first Dulinor, then Strephon, and now the Ziru
Sirkaa, Margaret has been left with a remarkably intact and
high-technology fleet.
Hard Times p16

Note also that Margaret's cease-fire negotiations with the Solomani in 1124 produced such discord within the Soli military-politico machine that there was a decrease in their offensive activities. Plus, she gets the Hivers involved in Imperial space.

I'm not so sure that Margaret was the lightweight that she's sometimes portrayed as.


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