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-   -   "Classic Traveller Plus"? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=31085)

Marchand September 16th, 2013 12:20 PM

"Classic Traveller Plus"?
 
The UGM thread has some mentions of something called "Classic Traveller Plus". I'm intrigued - but google has let me down. Does anyone remember what this was about? I imagine someone's heavily-houseruled CT?

mike wightman September 16th, 2013 02:21 PM

Before T5 was announced Hunter Gordon proposed an updated version of CT which maintained the simplicity of CT but would use the benefit of the lessons learned over the course of several Traveller iterations.

When T5 was announced CT+ was dropped, so a few of us started speculating on how we would do it.

Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005 ;)

Note that MgT is pretty close to a lot of the suggestions we came up with...

robject September 16th, 2013 03:29 PM

...or at least, CT, CT+, and MgT form the points of some kind of triangle... I mean, let's face it, when you clean up and expand CT, you're going to end up with something that looks like a cleaned-up and expanded CT.

Fritz_Brown September 16th, 2013 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 453429)
Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005 ;)

Except "CT+" won't work as a search term on CotI. :(

mike wightman September 16th, 2013 05:34 PM

Ok I'll post the links then:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ead.php?t=5002

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ead.php?t=5048

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ead.php?t=5051

They are old threads so there are formatting issues.

aramis September 16th, 2013 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 453429)
Before T5 was announced Hunter Gordon proposed an updated version of CT which maintained the simplicity of CT but would use the benefit of the lessons learned over the course of several Traveller iterations.

When T5 was announced CT+ was dropped, so a few of us started speculating on how we would do it.

Search CT+, or check the threads I started about it back in 2005 ;)

Note that MgT is pretty close to a lot of the suggestions we came up with...

A parallel project was Avenger's Classic Traveller; it wasn't cancelled with T5 announcement, but was cancelled around the MGT license deal.

Supplement Four September 16th, 2013 07:27 PM

I also had a task system for CT that I called CT+.

robject September 17th, 2013 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 453509)
A parallel project was Avenger's Classic Traveller; it wasn't cancelled with T5 announcement, but was cancelled around the MGT license deal.

ACT was indeed a cleaned-up CT, centering on a DGP/MT-like task system, High Guard-like starship design, generally regularizing and rationalizing the core CT books into three rulebooks. I would suggest that it was a stripped-down MT, except the things which I think made MT distinctive were absent from ACT. MJD did a good job putting it all together.

And not all was in vain. The equipment section of ACT morphed into Mongoose Traveller's "Central Supply Catalogue".

Marchand September 18th, 2013 11:49 AM

Thanks all for the info, that clears that up. Those threads were an interesting read.

GypsyComet September 18th, 2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robject (Post 453602)
The equipment section of ACT morphed into Mongoose Traveller's "Central Supply Catalogue".

Was it a big book of guns then, too?

The CSC should have started from a basis of MT's Imperial Encyclopedia, instead of a gun show catalog.

robject September 18th, 2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyComet (Post 453695)
Was it a big book of guns then, too?

The CSC should have started from a basis of MT's Imperial Encyclopedia, instead of a gun show catalog.

The first time I thumbed thru the MgT CSC, I said to myself, said I, this looks mighty familiar.

Equipment is paradoxically hard to do. It requires a considerable amount of editing and input in order to give it just the right content.

MT's Imperial Encyclopedia's equipment section is fantastic. It hits just the right size and content. In other words, it's already got the content decided and listed for you, in carefully appropriate and proportional amounts; go forth and port. Yeah, you're right, that should have been the place to start.

rancke September 18th, 2013 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robject (Post 453708)
Equipment is paradoxically hard to do. It requires a considerable amount of editing and input in order to give it just the right content.

MT's Imperial Encyclopedia's equipment section is fantastic. It hits just the right size and content. In other words, it's already got the content decided and listed for you, in carefully appropriate and proportional amounts; go forth and port. Yeah, you're right, that should have been the place to start.

T4:Central Supply Catalog was one of the good T4 books.


Hans

Jame October 16th, 2013 04:29 PM

As an aside, what is the CT experience rule, or at least what is the reference for it if it can't be put up here?

Marchand October 17th, 2013 11:33 AM

CT experience is covered in the Traveller Book on page 103. It's based around 4-year training programmes to improve a skill, learn a new skill, or boost physical characteristics or EDU.

The roll for boosting physical characteristics gets a DM+2 if INT 8-, or DM+4 if INT 5- !

Supplement Four October 17th, 2013 07:30 PM

The "Experience Rule" is also covered on page 29 of the Traveller Book, under "Maximum Skills".

Basically, the rules says that a character can have no more total skill levels than the total of his INT + EDU.

For example, if your character has INT-7 and EDU-9, then you would sum up all of a character's skills. The total cannot be larger than 16.

Although it's not cited as such here, in other references, the sum of a character's INT + EDU is refered to as the character's Experience.

I do like this rule in the game. I know MT uses it, but I think it was dropped from rule sets after MT (and, I'm not sure if it is referenced in every CT edition).

Basically, if you've got a dumb, un-educated character, he is limited on the number of skills he can have. For example, if a character has INT-3 and EDU-4, then the character is limited to a total of 7 skills levels. If the character has AutoRifle-3, Engineering-2, Forgery-1, Admin-0, Vacc Suit-0, and Ship's Boat-1, he cannot learn any more skills or improve the ones he has.

With a character like that, the character is forced to use the CT experience rules to improve His EDU score.

In other words, the boy needz sum learnin', an iffin he gets it, he'll has room fo mo skillz. He can improve a skill he has or learn a new skill.

rancke October 17th, 2013 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supplement Four (Post 455641)
Basically, if you've got a dumb, un-educated character, he is limited on the number of skills he can have. For example, if a character has INT-3 and EDU-4, then the character is limited to a total of 7 skills levels. If the character has AutoRifle-3, Engineering-2, Forgery-1, Admin-0, Vacc Suit-0, and Ship's Boat-1, he cannot learn any more skills or improve the ones he has.

And he can't learn any more physical skills no matter how strong and agile he may be. I have a big problem with that. On the other hand, our INT-3, EDU-4 character could theoretically learn Science-7 if the dice fell just right. I have a problem with that too.


Hans

mike wightman October 17th, 2013 07:53 PM

I do not like that rule.

There are quite a few characters in 1001 characters that break it for one thing, for another it didn't exist in CT or revised CT before TTB.

It defeats the skills trumping stats trope of CT too.

In CT pre-TTB and the stupid rule you could have a 4 term Army vet with an Int and Edu of 4 that has 10 skills - a very playable character.

Using the stupid rule the character is wasting their time after term 1 since they learn nothing new (a bit silly).

Modify it to say no more skills than Int+Edu and it may be playable, otherwise I will never use it.

Supplement Four October 17th, 2013 08:08 PM

Also note that an often overlooked aspect of CT is that characters, straight out of character generation, can use the CT Experience system to immediately improve a skill or gain a new skill.

For example, let's look at the first sample character provided on page 30 of the Characters chapter in the Traveller Book.

Navy 557AF7 Age 30
4 terms Cr0
Computer-1, Gunnery-1, Vacc-1
Traveller's Aid Society

Page 37 of the Traveller Books tells us that all Player Characters have all of the usual weapons shown in that book as a default skill. That is, each PC has all of the usual weapons at Skill-0. So, even though the character above doesn't have any weapon skills, he will not be penalized by the Untrained Weapon Usage rule if he picks up an AutoRifle and starts blasting away. He will be treated as if he has AutoRifle-0.



The player running this character can go a step further to improve the character before play by using the CT Experience rules.

First, the character must make an 8+ Dedication roll, with no DMs. If this roll is not successful, then the character cannot try again until a full game year has passed for the character.

If the roll is successful, then the character can use the Weapon Expertise program to IMMEDIATELY improve one weapon skill and one blade skill.

In this example, the player will want to choose either the Carbine or the Shotgun as his character's weapon skill because of the character's DEX-5 (avoiding DEX penalties). Let's pick the Shotgun.

With STR-5, there are a lot more choices, and for this character, let's pick the Blade.



Given the Experience rules, the character shown above can be improved with Shotgun-1 and Blade-1, straight out of chargen, if the Dedication throw is successful.

The character will look like this as play begins:

Navy 557AF7 Age 30
4 terms Cr0
Blade-1, Computer-1, Gunnery-1, Shotgun-1, Vacc-1
Traveller's Aid Society



Now, according to the Experience rules, those Blade-1 and Shotgun-1 added skills are not permanent to the character unless the 8 year training program is completed. BUT, if the training Dedication throw is made, the character can benefit from the improved skills for 4 GAME YEARS!





Here's another neat part to the Experience rules. Let's say that the character above finds a high tech metal club that can deliver an electrical shock for extra stun damage on a successful hit. The character is considered to have the skill Club-0, right?

Well, the player can drop the training program on the Blade (at which point, the skill will revert to Blade-0) and pick up training with the club. In effect, his Blade-1 skill will drop to Blade-0 and his Club-0 skill will improve to Club-1. The catch is that a character can only attempt a new training program but once per game year.

So, the best thing to do is keep the Blade-1 skill for a full year, and at that point, drop it for the Club-1 skill. But, remember, the 8+ Dedication throw must be made in order for the new Club program to be undertaken (otherwise, it will be another year before the roll can be tried again in order to improve the Club skill).

Whether the Dedication throw for the Club is made before or after the Blade training is dropped is not addressed in the rules and is in the purview of the Ref. A hard Ref might make a player decide to chance the Dedication throw AFTER the Blade training is dropped. An easier Ref might allow a player to know the outcome of the Dedication throw for the Club before the player has to make a decision on whether to drop the Blade training.

I lean to the latter. Skills in CT are scarce enough. Why not allow players to keep their current training program if they are unable to change it to a different weapon?




This illustrates how the CT Experience system can be used to allow players some limited tailoring ability with their characters.

Supplement Four October 17th, 2013 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancke (Post 455642)
And he can't learn any more physical skills no matter how strong and agile he may be.

That may be an interesting House Rule. But, the physical skills are STR + DEX + END. You'll almost always have high totals that allow as many physical skills as the character can gain in chargen or by using the Experience system.



Quote:

On the other hand, our INT-3, EDU-4 character could theoretically learn Science-7 if the dice fell just right. I have a problem with that too.
I don't have an issue with that. "if the dice fell just right" is key. It's very unlikely, if the CT chargen rules are followed (and the real Survival Rule is used and not the Optional Survival Rule). And, even in the very rare occurence that it did happen, I could see someone focussing their entire life in one area to become an uber master without knowing much of anything else.





Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 455643)
There are quite a few characters in 1001 characters that break it for one thing, for another it didn't exist in CT or revised CT before TTB.

Hard to tell, with all the revisions that CT saw. Like the Pulse Laser rule showing up only in Starter Traveller.



Quote:

It defeats the skills trumping stats trope of CT too.
I disagree. Stats definitely have their place in CT. Throw 2D for a stat or less is an often used throw. If you want to throw a Blade, then a character uses his full DEX score as a modifier on the throw. And, stats definitely modify or govern a lot of throws: For example, the DEX modifiers to Gun Combat attack throws; END used to count the number of Blade Combat rounds until the Weakened Blow penalty is assumed; various DMs on throws based on level of stat, etc.



Quote:

In CT pre-TTB and the stupid rule you could have a 4 term Army vet with an Int and Edu of 4 that has 10 skills - a very playable character.
Any character in CT, regardless of stats or skills, is "very playable", imo.

Supplement Four October 17th, 2013 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 455643)
There are quite a few characters in 1001 characters that break it for one thing, for another it didn't exist in CT or revised CT before TTB.

I would argue that the characters you cite in 1001 Characters do not actually break the rule.

My reasoning: There's nothing in the Maximum Skills rule that addresses "rolling back" skills if a character gets through chargen with a total number of skill levels that exceeds the character's Experience score.

What would you do? Roll randomly to see which skills have to be lowered? Reduce the highest skills first? Player's choice?

I think that if a character gets through chargen like this, then that's where the character starts play. In fact, chargen is the only way a character can obtain more total skill levels than his Experience score allows. The Experince System is not open to a character like this (as far as skill improvement goes--the Physical Program would certainly be open).

If a character like this wishes to improve a skill or add a new skill, then he must use the Experience system to increase his EDU score so that his Experience score is higher than the total sum of his skill levels.

Supplement Four October 17th, 2013 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 455643)
There are quite a few characters in 1001 characters that break it for one thing, for another it didn't exist in CT or revised CT before TTB.

A few more tidbits...

The rule is part of the Starter Traveller rule set. I did not see it listed in Book 1, though.

I checked the MT Player's Guide, since the rule is used in that edition of the rules, too, and it seems that the Player of the character is tasked with reducing his character's skills to comply with the rule before chargen is complete.

In a CT game, though, I'd still go with what I said above. If a character comes out of chargen with more total skill levels than his Experince score allows, the character's only option to improve is to increase his EDU score first, then follow the normal Experience rules.

mike wightman October 18th, 2013 01:32 PM

Which would be fine if there was a way to increase Edu - but it is limited to no higher than Int by the Experience rules.

It can also be increased as a mustering out benefit, so there is a little scope for improvement after character generation and mustering out.

Perhaps a house rule fix would be that once a character has maxed out their skills further skill points have to be spent raising Int or Edu in lieu of the rolled skill. Increase them both by 1 so that more skills can be received in a subsequent term.

Note that Merc and HG characters could have way more skills than their Int and Edu cap - there is even an example in LBB4 (resume 2) of a character with Int + Edu of 12 and 16 skill levels.

Supplement Four October 18th, 2013 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike wightman (Post 455666)
Which would be fine if there was a way to increase Edu - but it is limited to no higher than Int by the Experience rules.

Yep, some people aren't as smart as others.

I love the elegance of CT, this rule included.



Quote:

Note that Merc and HG characters could have way more skills than their Int and Edu cap - there is even an example in LBB4 (resume 2) of a character with Int + Edu of 12 and 16 skill levels.
I covered that in one of my replies above. As long as EDU is lower than INT by 5 points or more, then this character's only option is to increase EDU.

Then, otoh, 16 skill levels is quite a lot of skills for a CT character. The limit to not add anymore seems quite necessary to me.




Looked at with a different point of view, one could say that a character like this gets to benefit from his maximum skills for the entire time the character is in play. A character with room to grow slowly adds more skills through the Experience system.

Jame October 19th, 2013 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marchand (Post 455623)
CT experience is covered in the Traveller Book on page 103. It's based around 4-year training programmes to improve a skill, learn a new skill, or boost physical characteristics or EDU.

That seems rather too long. I think I'd use either the MGT rule or the one my GM seems to have - roll vs difficulty for skill if you have down-time.

Quote:

The roll for boosting physical characteristics gets a DM+2 if INT 8-, or DM+4 if INT 5- !
I could say some things about THAT - perfect for meatheads!

Supplement Four October 19th, 2013 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jame (Post 455719)
That seems rather too long. I think I'd use either the MGT rule or the one my GM seems to have - roll vs difficulty for skill if you have down-time.

What I'm not sure was clear to you is that the skill increase is immediate. You get it right then. It's not permanent for 8 years, though.

The CT Experience system mirrors CT character generation. Skills come at about the same speed.

And, you can benefit from a skill increase, then drop it, and increase another skill, if your throws roll what you need them too. This simulates how, in real life, we are good at something and then that skill lags a bit.

For example, when I was in Jr. High, I rode my bike everywhere. Today, I haven't been on a bike in decades. So, my skill was higher at one time, then I dropped "training" it. But, I could pick it up again.

GypsyComet October 26th, 2013 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jame (Post 455719)
I could say some things about THAT - perfect for meatheads!

You do realize that a +DM was a BAD thing in early CT, right?


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