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-   -   I have a question for Twilight 2000/2013 melee (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=38425)

AsenRG November 2nd, 2017 01:53 PM

I have a question for Twilight 2000/2013 melee
 
Namely, how is the unarmed/melee combat? How does the Coolness Under Fire stat apply there:)?

Most of my campaigns end up being about, you guessed it right, close combat, usually in cities. But the stat is a cool idea which might, potentially, reflect well my thankfully limited experience.

And I've been thinking about a gritty modern campaign, lately;).

jcrocker November 4th, 2017 12:03 AM

I had a look at my v2.2 of Twilight: 2000, and it didn't use Coolness Under Fire at all. It uses Initiative.

It does use initiative for both types of combat - a character gets an initiative score through chargen. For a combat round, it starts at initiative 6 [or higher if needed] and everyone with a 6 acts, players choice of melee or ranged. Then everyone with a 5, 4, etc.

If your initiative is above 5 [I think] your character acts at the initiative level and also again at half level. Initiative is reduced through wound levels, so a high-initiative character could lose that second action.

There was nothing about coolness under fire in the T2K index.

CUF is, however, a stat in 2300. I didn't look up how it was used - from what I remember, combat in 2300 was crunchier than T2K, and if you're going to have a T2K game, you're miles ahead using that system.

BlackBat242 November 4th, 2017 02:51 AM

Twilight: 2000 1E certainly did have "coolness under fire" - it is on page 5/6 of the Play Manual.

CUF is determined by dividing the PC's number of months in combat by 10, and dropping fractions. 1D6 is rolled, and that number is added to the previously-determined number. That total is subtracted from 10 - this is the PC's CUF. Lower is better, as explained next.

The effect of CUF in combat is explained on page 18 of the Play Manual... it is the same for all types of combat - melee, body, and fire - indeed, the action(s) being taken is/are irrelevant. Every PC must spend as many rounds (5 seconds each) of the 6 rounds in a combat turn (30 seconds) "hesitating" as his/her CUF/2 (rounded up).

A hesitation round is one where the PC can do nothing... however, if the same action is being performed for the entire turn (crawling along a ditch, firing at a target, driving a vehicle under fire), then no hesitation need be taken. If the chain of action is broken (running out of ammo, tripping while running, etc) then the hesitation rounds must be taken at that time.

Otherwise, hesitation rounds may be taken whenever the PC's player designates - all together or spread out during the turn - and whenever during the turn the player desires.


If the PC is surprised*, or is knocked down, there is a chance of panicking. 1d10 is rolled - if the result is less than or equal to the PC's CUF, he/she panics, and must immediately hesitate for CUF/2 rounds (rounded up) - all at once, and in addition to any hesitation rounds already taken that turn. The first panic round is shock paralysis - the PC cannot move. The next panic round (if there is one) the PC may drop prone or dive into cover that is within 2 meters**, and remain stationary until all hesitations are used (both the panic ones and any unused normal hesitation rounds for that turn).

Being charged by a vehicle (other than a bicycle, etc) or a large running animal forces a panic roll. If the PC panics, running away is automatic (all panic hesitation rounds are spent running). If the charging threat can probably be stopped by a weapon the PC has ready to use, then the roll for panic is reduced by 2.


* Attacked from an unexpected direction, otherwise see the "encounters" chapter of the Referee's Manual.

** I add the option of running away from whatever surprised the PC for the remainder of the panic rounds.

aramis November 4th, 2017 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 576560)
Twilight: 2000 1E certainly did have "coolness under fire" - it is on page 5/6 of the Play Manual.

Sadly, 2.2 doesn't. Well, not exactly. Initiative serves some of CUF's purpose, plus several of its own.

AsenRG November 4th, 2017 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcrocker (Post 576545)
I had a look at my v2.2 of Twilight: 2000, and it didn't use Coolness Under Fire at all. It uses Initiative.

It does use initiative for both types of combat - a character gets an initiative score through chargen. For a combat round, it starts at initiative 6 [or higher if needed] and everyone with a 6 acts, players choice of melee or ranged. Then everyone with a 5, 4, etc.

If your initiative is above 5 [I think] your character acts at the initiative level and also again at half level. Initiative is reduced through wound levels, so a high-initiative character could lose that second action.

There was nothing about coolness under fire in the T2K index.

CUF is, however, a stat in 2300. I didn't look up how it was used - from what I remember, combat in 2300 was crunchier than T2K, and if you're going to have a T2K game, you're miles ahead using that system.

Well, I haven't decided what system to use. The list of possible options is as long as my hand*, and than some:).
To wit: Twilight 2000, CT, Traveller 2320 AD, T5, Feng Shui 2, Fates Worse Than Death/Hoodoo Blues, Silhouette, Cyberpunk 2020/Interlock Unlimited, Blue Planet 1, Blue Planet 2 (they're NOT the same system by a mile), 7th Sea 1st edition (suitably grittified), StarCluster 4, Kuro, and a few others...:D

Which is to say, Twilight 2000 sounds like it would work. But I haven't decided yet, just considering the options.

So, 2.2 basically has tick-based initiative, with an attack being 3 ticks long:)? Thank you, I've got a game that works exactly like that already. Make that 2 games, not sure how many "rounds" (effectively ticks) Blue Planet 1 used for an action.


*If you print it one word at a line, use double distance between the lines, and 72 pcts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 576560)
Twilight: 2000 1E certainly did have "coolness under fire" - it is on page 5/6 of the Play Manual.

CUF is determined by dividing the PC's number of months in combat by 10, and dropping fractions. 1D6 is rolled, and that number is added to the previously-determined number. That total is subtracted from 10 - this is the PC's CUF. Lower is better, as explained next.

The effect of CUF in combat is explained on page 18 of the Play Manual... it is the same for all types of combat - melee, body, and fire - indeed, the action(s) being taken is/are irrelevant. Every PC must spend as many rounds (5 seconds each) of the 6 rounds in a combat turn (30 seconds) "hesitating" as his/her CUF/2 (rounded up).

A hesitation round is one where the PC can do nothing... however, if the same action is being performed for the entire turn (crawling along a ditch, firing at a target, driving a vehicle under fire), then no hesitation need be taken. If the chain of action is broken (running out of ammo, tripping while running, etc) then the hesitation rounds must be taken at that time.

Otherwise, hesitation rounds may be taken whenever the PC's player designates - all together or spread out during the turn - and whenever during the turn the player desires.


If the PC is surprised*, or is knocked down, there is a chance of panicking. 1d10 is rolled - if the result is less than or equal to the PC's CUF, he/she panics, and must immediately hesitate for CUF/2 rounds (rounded up) - all at once, and in addition to any hesitation rounds already taken that turn. The first panic round is shock paralysis - the PC cannot move. The next panic round (if there is one) the PC may drop prone or dive into cover that is within 2 meters**, and remain stationary until all hesitations are used (both the panic ones and any unused normal hesitation rounds for that turn).

Being charged by a vehicle (other than a bicycle, etc) or a large running animal forces a panic roll. If the PC panics, running away is automatic (all panic hesitation rounds are spent running). If the charging threat can probably be stopped by a weapon the PC has ready to use, then the roll for panic is reduced by 2.


* Attacked from an unexpected direction, otherwise see the "encounters" chapter of the Referee's Manual.

** I add the option of running away from whatever surprised the PC for the remainder of the panic rounds.

Thank you for the detailed explanation! Depending on the action allowed during "hesitation", this might make CUF the deciding factor between well-matched opponents... or even between unevenly-matched ones;).
I like that:devil:! Can you even defend actively during "hesitation"?

Ahem, is that number the total number of months spent in combat? And does low-intensity combat count?
What if a PC had spent 8 months in active deployment, then went back for 6 months R&D, then spent an year in urban combat against groups using suicide tactics and blending with the population? Assuming an average roll of 3, would the CUF be 5, 6, or 7;)?
Either way, sounds like a good way to show how experience improves a PC's abilities!

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 576571)
Sadly, 2.2 doesn't. Well, not exactly. Initiative serves some of CUF's purpose, plus several of its own.

AFAICT from the descriptions in this thread, Initiative allows more attacks, just like having a lower CUF, and I guess it also serves to determine who acts first. Anything I'm missing;)?

aramis November 4th, 2017 01:53 PM

2.2 gives the second action at half, round down, yes, but only if initiative is 6+.
So it's not 3 tics...
InitiativeActionsphases
10210,5
929,4
828,4
727,3
626,3
515
414
313
212
111

AsenRG November 4th, 2017 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 576605)
2.2 gives the second action at half, round down, yes, but only if initiative is 6+.
So it's not 3 tics...
InitiativeActionsphases
10210,5
929,4
828,4
727,3
626,3
515
414
313
212
111

OK, I thought it's hard/impossible to get over Initiative 6. My mistake, but up to Initiative 8, "three ticks" made sense as a generalization:).
(At this point, as your table shows, you still haven't got a "ninth tick" for a third attack, and moving the second from Initiative 3 to Initiative 4 makes sense as a bonus for extremely high result).

So, it is basically initiative with an extra action for high numbers. Although it makes for a similar dynamic to how I imagine it would work with CUF, it's not quite the same;).
I guess I might be among the few who prefer the older variant...:cool: Makes sense, actually - I also like Classic Traveller and OSR games:p!

BlackBat242 November 5th, 2017 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsenRG (Post 576604)
Thank you for the detailed explanation! Depending on the action allowed during "hesitation", this might make CUF the deciding factor between well-matched opponents... or even between unevenly-matched ones;).
I like that:devil:! Can you even defend actively during "hesitation"?

Ahem, is that number the total number of months spent in combat? And does low-intensity combat count?
What if a PC had spent 8 months in active deployment, then went back for 6 months R&D, then spent an year in urban combat against groups using suicide tactics and blending with the population? Assuming an average roll of 3, would the CUF be 5, 6, or 7;)?
Either way, sounds like a good way to show how experience improves a PC's abilities!

Well, the example in the text in the book is of someone firing for the whole turn. If he has enough ammo to fire for all 6 rounds, then his hesitation rounds for that turn are bypassed (and do not have to be made up later) - but if he runs out of ammo before the last round of the turn, then he must use his hesitation then, as reloading is a different action from firing. It then says that he cannot reload during a hesitation round!

So virtually nothing can be done then... which makes it a real factor.


And yes, one's total lifetime combat months are used in the calculation... it even mentioned that a grizzled vet of several conflicts before "the twilight war" might have a CUF of zero!

And the rules makes no differentiation in types of combat for this calculation... any month in which you were being shot at/shooting at others/being bombed or shelled/etc seems to count equally - even if it was only for a few days.


In your example, that veteran would have 14 months of combat - divided by 10 (dropping fractions) that would be a 1. Add the roll of 3 (actually, the average of 1d6 is 3.5, so 4 would be just as common), and the resulting 4 is subtracted from 10 - giving a CUF of 6. Divided by 2 means that the PC has to spend 3 rounds of the 6 in each turn doing nothing.

If a Marine Sgt. Maj. had spent 6 months in combat at the end of Vietnam, and then participated in the Grenada invasion (1 month), and the 1982-83 Lebanon mission* (7 months for the 32nd MAU), then was in the Panamanian invasion (1 month), Desert Storm (2 months), before ending up in Europe for the TW (the game says 5 years of fighting before the game start-point, so lets say 3 years (36 months)in combat). That's 53 months... so with a roll of 3 he subtracts 8 from 10 to give a CUF of 2, which means 1 hesitation round. If the roll had been 5 or 6 he would have a CUF of 0.


* While officially a "peacekeeping" mission, the soldiers were exposed to nearly-daily firing in their vicinity, and frequently had to alter a patrol route because an armed group fired warning shots at them - not to mention bombs going off frequently, the sight of wounded/dead civilians being common - and the reality that they did exchange fire with "militias" on several occasions "in self-defense" before the barracks bombing in April 1983 that killed 220 Marines and 21 other US military personnel - plus 58 French peacekeepers & 6 civilians.

AsenRG November 5th, 2017 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 576669)
Well, the example in the text in the book is of someone firing for the whole turn. If he has enough ammo to fire for all 6 rounds, then his hesitation rounds for that turn are bypassed (and do not have to be made up later) - but if he runs out of ammo before the last round of the turn, then he must use his hesitation then, as reloading is a different action from firing. It then says that he cannot reload during a hesitation round!

So virtually nothing can be done then... which makes it a real factor.

Ouch, just imagine that in melee. Street tough vs Rookie Cop, no time in combat...
No wonder the rookie cops would be known for excessive use of force or high mortality rates, his only chance is an "attack-attack-attack-attack-attack-attack" routine:D! Otherwise, Street Tough weathers a couple attacks, puts him down with a dirty kick, and it's now stomping time...

Quote:

And yes, one's total lifetime combat months are used in the calculation... it even mentioned that a grizzled vet of several conflicts before "the twilight war" might have a CUF of zero!
:cool:

Quote:

And the rules makes no differentiation in types of combat for this calculation... any month in which you were being shot at/shooting at others/being bombed or shelled/etc seems to count equally - even if it was only for a few days.
Sounds like a fun mechanic...:devil:

Quote:

In your example, that veteran would have 14 months of combat - divided by 10 (dropping fractions) that would be a 1. Add the roll of 3 (actually, the average of 1d6 is 3.5, so 4 would be just as common), and the resulting 4 is subtracted from 10 - giving a CUF of 6. Divided by 2 means that the PC has to spend 3 rounds of the 6 in each turn doing nothing.
Actually, it's (carefully selected) to make it 20 months (12+8), so the CUF would be 5, for 4 rounds of activity and 2 of inactivity.
Quote:

If a Marine Sgt. Maj. had spent 6 months in combat at the end of Vietnam, and then participated in the Grenada invasion (1 month), and the 1982-83 Lebanon mission* (7 months for the 32nd MAU), then was in the Panamanian invasion (1 month), Desert Storm (2 months), before ending up in Europe for the TW (the game says 5 years of fighting before the game start-point, so lets say 3 years (36 months)in combat). That's 53 months... so with a roll of 3 he subtracts 8 from 10 to give a CUF of 2, which means 1 hesitation round. If the roll had been 5 or 6 he would have a CUF of 0.
That description is of a grizzled veteran, alright...:)

Quote:

* While officially a "peacekeeping" mission, the soldiers were exposed to nearly-daily firing in their vicinity, and frequently had to alter a patrol route because an armed group fired warning shots at them - not to mention bombs going off frequently, the sight of wounded/dead civilians being common - and the reality that they did exchange fire with "militias" on several occasions "in self-defense" before the barracks bombing in April 1983 that killed 220 Marines and 21 other US military personnel - plus 58 French peacekeepers & 6 civilians.
Makes total sense to count it as combat, in my book;).

BlackBat242 November 5th, 2017 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsenRG (Post 576671)
Actually, it's (carefully selected) to make it 20 months (12+8), so the CUF would be 5, for 4 rounds of activity and 2 of inactivity.

Oops - I mixed up which to count. So yes, 20 months combat.

Remember to round up after dividing by 2 for hesitation rounds... 5/2=2.5, rounded up to 3 hesitation rounds.


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