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Supplement Four December 24th, 2009 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 339015)
No, 2E kept segments... see spell casting times.

No, they used to be Casting Segments in 1E, and segments in 1E represented a portion of actual time in the round (as stated above).

In 2E, what used to be Casting Segments became Casting Time, and Casting Time is a modifier to the Initiative Throw.

Just like Weapon Speed Factors, or a -1 mod for having higher ground.

BlackBat242 December 24th, 2009 02:27 AM

Huh... so it does. Go figure.

Everybody I played 2E with (I have only DM'ed 1E, not having learned {incompletely, apparently} 2E since 2001) seems to have kept the concept of segments, complete with carrying actions over to the next round if there are not enough segments left to do it in the current round (thanks to your bad initiative).

10 segments, a D10 for initiative... they are used just like that by all the 2E DMs I've played under (and they were from completely seperata and distinct groups).

aramis December 24th, 2009 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 339027)
Huh... so it does. Go figure.

Everybody I played 2E with (I have only DM'ed 1E, not having learned {incompletely, apparently} 2E since 2001) seems to have kept the concept of segments, complete with carrying actions over to the next round if there are not enough segments left to do it in the current round (thanks to your bad initiative).

10 segments, a D10 for initiative... they are used just like that by all the 2E DMs I've played under (and they were from completely seperata and distinct groups).

ANd in several late-2E era adventures, as well. Specifically retail play adventures.

The segments themselves went away, as did the 20 segment limit... but the initiative process was the same... see, S4, I never used AD&D 1E individual initiative/Weapon Speeds. I learned it from 2E.

Lycanorukke December 24th, 2009 09:03 AM

When I DM'd 2E I still used "segments" but not quite in the way 1st ed used them (10 lots of six seconds = 1 round) - to keep track of things which occured during the round.

Movement per "segment" was max speed divided by 10. So a human could walk 12 feet per segment, while a dwarf could move 6. Weapons speed, spells and the like were also used this way.

So say the dwarf charges the orcs who are 60 feet away. As he is running his movement is doubled - so 12 feet per segment. It will take him 5 segments (5 x 12 = 60) to get there. Weapon speed is not counted in a charge so we ignore it. A fireball has a time of 3 (3 segments). Initiative is rolled and they get a 6 on d10. The dwarf will hit the orcs at 11, the fireball will go off at 9.

The fireball has a radius of 20 feet, but the dwarf is still 2 segments away from the orcs (2 x 12' = 24 feet), so his beard get singed but he is not damaged. If the orcs were only 50 feet away he would have been fried, or if the orcs moved at initative 10 closer to the dwarf - the mage would either have to abort the spell (lose his round) or cook the dwarf.

If the dwarf then walks 10 feet and swings his axe his initative modifier would be +9 (7 for axe, 2 for moving).

While a mix of 1st ed, 2nd ed and house ruling, it was very useful to prevent PC's from "teleporting" around the battlefield at will.

Supplement Four December 24th, 2009 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBat242 (Post 339027)
Huh... so it does. Go figure.

I'm currently playing the Dragonlance epic with my group. We're about to complete the first adventure.

Besides a romp with Conan recently (based on 3.5 E rules), I haven't played any form of d20 or D&D for mucho, mucho years. My Dragonlance modules are 1E AD&D while my rule books are 2E AD&D. So, I've been pouring over the rules to learn how to play the game RAW. It's been decades. My memory is hazy. And, I don't think we ever played RAW either. This time, I'm trying to keep the game as close to RAW as possible (which ain't easy to do with all the 2E Optional Rules).

What I have learned though, is that there are several differences between 1E and 2E AD&D. I used to think those differences were slight. Now, I know that there are some big differences.

For example, a PC will advance a heck of a lot faster in 2E rather than in 1E. 2E tries to get the PCs out of the lower levels faster than did 1E. (Much faster.)




Quote:

...seems to have kept the concept of segments, complete with carrying actions over to the next round if there are not enough segments left to do it in the current round (thanks to your bad initiative).
Yep, that's gone in 2E. Initiative modifiers, like Speed Factors and Casting Time are just that: modifiers. The initiative throw just indicates who goes when without detailing a specfic time in the combat round.



Quote:

10 segments, a D10 for initiative...
1E uses a d6 for Initiative. 2E uses a d10.





Man...1E AD&D is very, very complicated, if you want to play it RAW. Check this out: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/php4/arch...63&watchfile=0

This file is a flow chart/outline of a 1E AD&D combat round, complete with references where the rules come from.

Whew!





Quote:

Originally Posted by aramis (Post 339041)
... but the initiative process was the same...

No, sir, 1E Initiative and 2E Initiative are vastly different.

Click on that link above and check out how complicated 1E Initiative is. 2E Initiative is vastly simpler (although, by most accounts, still fairly complex--just no where near 1E rules).

spinwardpirate December 24th, 2009 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supplement Four (Post 339065)
For example, a PC will advance a heck of a lot faster in 2E rather than in 1E. 2E tries to get the PCs out of the lower levels faster than did 1E. (Much faster.)

It does?!?!?
Wow, just goes to show you how memory fades. I thought the XP progression table stayed the same between 1E and 2E.

aramis December 24th, 2009 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinwardpirate (Post 339078)
It does?!?!?
Wow, just goes to show you how memory fades. I thought the XP progression table stayed the same between 1E and 2E.

It did stay the same, for levels under 10....

2E, however, gives explicit RP bonuses, as well as bonuses for class ability uses. Since those don't go up with level, they speed up lower levels more than upper, and changed some numbers above 10th. Not much, but a little.

the angle December 24th, 2009 05:54 PM

S4 -- Open disclosure time.

If you check the credits page in your 2E rulebook, you'll see "Designer: David 'Zeb' Cook" and "Development: Steve Winter and Jon Pickens." I'm the Steve Winter leg of that tripod. I wrote the example of play in question, so I can state with fair authority that you're searching for more rigor than the turn sequence was meant to have.

The question of when things happen depends on the players' descriptions and the DM's interpretation of the situation more than on the initiative rolls. Within the one-minute combat round, a lot of things are happening more-or-less at the same time. The initiative roll doesn't determine exactly when any particular character does something, especially if you're using the basic one-roll-per-side rule. Initiative is not synonymous with turn sequence as it is in many other rules. It is simply "which side has the slight upper hand this round?" That side gets to log its damage before the other guys. But they're all in there swinging, dodging, maneuvering, and casting spells at the same time. It's significant that in the example, the wizard cancels her fireball before the initiative dice are rolled. The dwarf is charging into melee without hesitation, so he's bound to be in the target area before she can launch the spell. No particular rule dictates this; it's part of the scene that the dwarf's player created when he shouted "charge!"

The second part of the example paints a pretty clear picture (I like to think) of a lot of things happening simultaneously. The wizard's spell strikes while the dwarf is fighting with the orcs. An arrow hits an orc as it takes its position in line. The orcs don't finish forming their line until their turn comes around (because they lost initiative; the heroes "had the upper hand"), but they were trying to get into formation the whole time while simultaneously dodging the dwarf's ax and the archer's arrows. When the troll leader finally lands a blow on the dwarf, the others follow their leader's example and swarm around him.

It's meant to be chaotic; it's intended that everything is happening at the same time. The initiative roll is a tool to help the DM decide whether the dwarf or the troll lands a telling blow* first, but they're both hacking away and maneuvering the whole time according to the DM's and players' descriptions.

Steve

*It doesn't even need to be a single blow. 8 points of damage could come from one mighty buffet or from eight shallow cuts. The initiative roll determines nothing more than who feels the effects of their wounds first.

Supplement Four December 24th, 2009 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the angle (Post 339080)
If you check the credits page in your 2E rulebook, you'll see "Designer: David 'Zeb' Cook" and "Development: Steve Winter and Jon Pickens." I'm the Steve Winter leg of that tripod.

Ya never know who you'll meet on the net, huh. Well, howdy. Glad you joined the discussion.



Quote:

I wrote the example of play in question, so I can state with fair authority that you're searching for more rigor than the turn sequence was meant to have.
I'm looking for where movement is meant to be done in the game, that's all. A turn sequence is provided with steps: GM secretly decides; then players declare; then initiative is rolled; then the round is played.

In which of those steps does movement fall?

I think it's a fair question.





Quote:

It's significant that in the example, the wizard cancels her fireball before the initiative dice are rolled. The dwarf is charging into melee without hesitation, so he's bound to be in the target area before she can launch the spell. No particular rule dictates this; it's part of the scene that the dwarf's player created when he shouted "charge!"
Here's how I interpreted the example.

GM secretly decided on the orcs and trolls actions, as mentioned in the example.

In the next step, the players declare. Dwarf says he'll charge the orc. Mage says she'll cast a fireball. DM reminds the Mage that she'll have a charging dwarf possibly in front of her when the time comes to throw the spell, so she changes her mind--she doesn't know how the initiative dice will fall.

Note: I use individual initiative (so, it's not certain whether the dwarf will have completed his charge by the time the mage throws the fireball--but why take chances?), but your example is based on default inititiave. Under default initiative, it reads to me that the DM generally runs the players' side in the order that they declared actions. The orc spoke up first and said charge, so he'd certainly be in front of the mage when the fireball was thrown.

The end of the example comes when the DM calls for initiative throws. I read the example as the dwarf hasn't moved yet (he's not locked into melee yet with the orc he is trying to charge) because initiative hasn't yet been thrown. When the dwarf's turn comes around, on his initiative number, he'll complete his charge.

So, I read it as movement comes after initiative is thrown.





Quote:

The second part of the example paints a pretty clear picture (I like to think) of a lot of things happening simultaneously. The wizard's spell strikes while the dwarf is fighting with the orcs. An arrow hits an orc as it takes its position in line. The orcs don't finish forming their line until their turn comes around (because they lost initiative; the heroes "had the upper hand"), but they were trying to get into formation the whole time while simultaneously dodging the dwarf's ax and the archer's arrows. When the troll leader finally lands a blow on the dwarf, the others follow their leader's example and swarm around him.

It's meant to be chaotic; it's intended that everything is happening at the same time. The initiative roll is a tool to help the DM decide whether the dwarf or the troll lands a telling blow* first, but they're both hacking away and maneuvering the whole time according to the DM's and players' descriptions.

I, like a lot of D&Ders, play out combats on a grid. Sometimes, I use pencil and graph paper. Many times, I use a large sheet of graph paper on a cork board with tacs used to represent the combatants. Scale is typically 10 feet per square on indoor locations and 10 yards per square on outdoor locations.

If I were playing your example, I'd describe the first part of the example, right as combat starts. I'd set up the scenario.

Then, I'd draw out the corridors and rooms--just what the characters can see. And, I'd place their starting positions on the grid.

Next, I'd follow the Combat Round Steps given in the book.

1. DM decides secretly what the bad guys do. Check. As explained in the example.

2. Player Declaration: Dwarf wants to charge orc. Mage starts casting spell. All per the example.

3. Initiative is thrown for all combatants per the individual initiative rule (but it works the same if the default initiative is used).

4. The round is resolved and played out in initiative order. The dwarf will charge on his initiative number. The mage will finish casting her spell on her initiative number. Etc.





Your example is fine if the DM is just describing things to players, not showing them it on a map. Players need to know when they can move.

What I don't understand is: The game is so structured in all the other combat areas. Spells effects are measured in hard ranges. We know how far a character can move in a round. There is a combat sequence given. The initiative rules state that ties indicated simultaneous actions. And, previous and future editions of the D&D game have movement happen at specific times during the combat.

Why would you basically say that it doesn't matter when a character is moved?








Quote:

*It doesn't even need to be a single blow. 8 points of damage could come from one mighty buffet or from eight shallow cuts. The initiative roll determines nothing more than who feels the effects of their wounds first.
This is understood. One minute is a long time, and hit points are an abstract measure of a character's health and physical condition. Damage sometimes doesn't even indicate that the character is actually wounded. It could represent the toon getting tired, fatigued during combat, less able to perform at his peak.

Still, we need to know when movement occurs in the round.

Why?

To have a standard for questions like this...



The dwarf and the mage from the example above stumble upon one orc and one troll a couple of days later during the adventure. This takes place in a wilderness setting.

Surprise is rolled, and neither side is surprised. Encounter distance is determined to be 20 yards.

The DM says, "You march up the steep hill, to find miles of grasslands in front of you. The grass is about five feet high. It sways in the wind. And, you can see trees pushing up past the grass, lightly dotting the landscape. A few large boulders can be seen as well.

"As you start down the slight incline of he hill you crested, you pass a large rock on your right. There's movement! You see a large, green thing, hop down out of a tree! It's a troll! It spurts something in a guttural tongue you can't understand, talking to an orc that has appeared from the other side of the tree. The troll points at the dwarf and grins, it's nasty teeth gleaming in the dying sunlight.

"What do you want to do?"

The DM has secretly decided that the troll has ordered the orc to charge the dwarf. The troll says that it will take care of the one in robes.

In response to the DM's question, the dwarf player says, "I'm charging the orc!"

The mage's player says, "Those two look mean. I'm casting mirror image!"



See the problem?

The orc is charging the dwarf, and the dwarf is charging the orc. Who goes first? If it's simultaneous, then how would you handle this? Both orc and dwarf charge, meet in the middle? If so, who swings first?

If you say that movement happens after initiative, then the problem is solved. Which ever character rolls the lowest init throw will decide if the dwarf or the orc charged first.

Only according to the rules does simultaneous actions happen when the initiative throw is tied.

If the dwarf wins nish, then it will complete it's charge before the orc begins his. If the orc wins, the opposite is true.

Supplement Four December 24th, 2009 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the angle (Post 339080)
If you check the credits page in your 2E rulebook, you'll see "Designer: David 'Zeb' Cook" and "Development: Steve Winter and Jon Pickens." I'm the Steve Winter leg of that tripod. I wrote the example of play in question, so I can state with fair authority....

Steve,

I've got a simpler question for you to answer. Not as many if/thens as I have in the more complicated example above.

What I want to know is how to run the scenario below between the mage and the gnoll, running it btb (by the book).

So, officially, how would this simple scenario be run by a DM?





Fred the Mage is bee-boppin' along like Goldilocks and spots a Gnoll with a bow 50 yards away. Neither Fred or the Gnoll is surprised. This is on a forest trail, so we're using Outside movement (measured in tens of yards).

1. The DM decides that the Gnoll will fire his bow at the Mage.

2. Player: "Fred's got 9 hit points. I'm not playing around with a bow in anybody's hands. Fred will walk, as fast as he can, to increase range and make himself harder to hit."



Question: How do you run this per the book? Does Fred walk his full 120 yards, increasing range for the Gnoll to 170 yards before the Gnoll gets to fire the bow?

Or, does the Gnoll get to fire his bow at 50 yards, before the mage moves?

Is this based on Initiative? Meaning: The Gnoll fires at 50 yards if he wins initiative but fires at 170 yards if he loses initiative?

How would this scenario be run using the offical rules?


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